LCB London--patience for the "same old question"

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Folks,

Well, I've been through the search of both the active WFP forums as well as the original forums. Dispite bloodshot eyes, I'm still stuck with the same old question about the value of schools, and in particular, LCB London. Here's the situation and a summary of what I think has been said on the topic:

My daughter just graduated high school and is serious about persuing a career in Pastry. She understands this is primarily production work and doesn't (as least seem) to have illusions about the work. We think it's well suited to her personality and talents. She doesn't have restaurant experience, but is trying to find a kitchen role for a few months before starting a program. As for the school vs. work only debate, we believe she'd be more successful if she could start in a class setting before the demands of a real kitchen.

We have been planning on sending her to LCB London, both for the education and the world experience (we're in Michigan, US). However, some advice we've received is that the program may be too short, or not geared towards, landing an entry level chef position upon completion.

Our real question is whether LCB London really does have the reputation to open doors upon gradutation with the Pat. deplome.

Here's some of the very diverse opinions we've found on webfoodpros (and our situation in brackets):

- You can get a good education at a community college in the US for less money [wouldn't provide the world experience]
- CIA would probably be the best US alternative [especially if you ask a CIA grad ]
- FCI in NY has mixed opinions on this board [but they do show up in Saveur, etc.]
- NECI is a good school [ask Alton Brown]
- LCB US isn't the same thing at all [question: how bad will the US name hurt the international brand?]
- Nothing beats work experience... some recommend it rather than school and it certainly helps before and in addition to school
- Lots of debate whether LCB is for serious "professionals" ... people vocal on both sides of the issue.


Soooooo, sorry for asking the SAME question, but some of the debates were pretty dated, and all things considered, I still couldn't tell if LCB London really has the right reputation, and whether it can lead to employment. Any (patient!) advice is appreciated. Thanks!

By Moyn2000 (Moyn2000) on Monday, February 07, 2005 - 02:12 pm: Edit

So it shows up in a search engine, I should have expanded LCB into "Le Cordon Bleu" at some point.

By Foodpump (Foodpump) on Monday, February 07, 2005 - 07:15 pm: Edit

Think of cooking schools as "crash courses" for the industry. Six months of school will never equal years of hands on experience, will not teach economy of movement, multi-tasking, or establishing work relationships with co-workers.

On the other hand, six months of schooling will give your daughter a "fighting chance" to stand up for herself at her first job in the kitchen. It will provide her with the basics, and will either whet her appetite for more learning or turn her off completely; there are very few people who leave a cooking school and are indecisive about their cooking careers.

As a parent, can you "write off" the cost of the course should your daughter find cooking not suitable a year or two down the road?

By Chefspike (Chefspike) on Monday, February 07, 2005 - 08:24 pm: Edit

ok. one more time.
(only because your in Michigan)
Sir,
If your daughter wanted to put brakes on cars, would you still feel the need to send her overseas to work for Saab?
I'm from Mich. I started working in rest's before getting into school.
I became a Pastry Chef.
Working in a rest. is the BEST first step for ANYONE wanting to get into this field.
My first job, dishwasher in a diner, and I moved up to cook. The things I learned there helped me be years ahead of other studends in my class.
Getting paid to learn is still the best way to do it.
Hell even Saab don't do that!
As far as the "World Experience", after I became a Pastry Chef, heres a short list of where I could have gone.
England
Saudi Arabia
Fiji
Japan
Hawaii
Mexico
Cruise Lines...(I don't like deep water)
Canada...Vancouver, Toranto.
Learning one on one with a boss, is better than one to 35 studends.
Have her get a job, work it for a while, learn everything she can. Example: 8 hours(paid) plus 2 hours staying after to help.
Everyday, five days a week. She will know what she needs to get better at.
And while she's doing this, sign up at Schoolcraft College, Livionia, Mich.
Thats what I did...
But,...its your money Dad.

By Chefgibz0 (Chefgibz0) on Tuesday, February 08, 2005 - 09:10 am: Edit

I agree with Spike. I started as a dishwasher at 15 and worked my way up before entering a college situation. You get to learn the basics so when you do enter the world of a classroom setting what they are trying to teach clicks and the understanding and knowledge comes full circle. One of the problems with foodservice professionals that only have school knowledge is the lack of practicle experience. What they teach in college is nine times out of ten only half the story in the real world. Besides, school almost never teaches the "tricks of the trade" of how to do things more efficient and cost effective.

Oh, Spike, Saab is a GM product now. So just like the Jaguar and Ford.....expect the quality to go south.

By Chefmanny (Chefmanny) on Tuesday, February 08, 2005 - 02:14 pm: Edit

Schools are like marriages, you get out of it what you put into it!!!!!!!!
Unless you cheat, then you have girlfriends, (jobs), to get practice!!!!!

By Chefspike (Chefspike) on Tuesday, February 08, 2005 - 11:54 pm: Edit

well manny thats one way to put it.
and I love Jaguar's.
I drove a XK8 for a while
black on coffee on black.
elwood the dog HATED that car, cause he never got a ride in it.
he loves convertables.

By Chefspike (Chefspike) on Wednesday, February 09, 2005 - 12:06 am: Edit

Hey MOYN 2000,
You could look into Chef Manny's school, in Flor-e-dah.
After reading what Chef Manny writes over the years, I think he would be an excellent teacher.
But at the same time, she would have to be an excellent student.
I think thats the case with many Chef's here, we have just had our fill of bad students, and employees. Any Chef anywhere that finds a student who is willing to do the hours and THINK and take good notes and not whine and go those extra yards that make them an excellent student, hell thats like finding "gold". It makes it all worth while.

By Chefmanny (Chefmanny) on Wednesday, February 09, 2005 - 06:07 am: Edit

I don't know about being an excellent teacher Spike but, I don't tell my students that they are going to be able to go get an Excec. Chef job at Trump Casino, and they only spend about $3000.00 for our program.

By Chefspike (Chefspike) on Wednesday, February 09, 2005 - 08:00 pm: Edit

trash deleted

By Chefmanny (Chefmanny) on Wednesday, February 09, 2005 - 08:29 pm: Edit

What are you talking about????????????
Wake up!!!!....when we have to support all the people at the unemployment line.

By Moyn2000 (Moyn2000) on Wednesday, February 09, 2005 - 09:30 pm: Edit

Folks, I appreciate the feedback! I think it's pretty clear that school, by itself, is no substitute for work experience. From reading the previous posts, it's clear that a lot of chefs have put up with students who come boppin' out of school and still don't have a clue.

Manny's point that you get out of it what you put into it makes sense to me... that goes for school and probably tenfold for an apprentice position.

Our thinking is that our daughter has "the chops", but might just need to have the ramp up time, and training, that school would provide. Sort of "basic training" before we throw her into combat.
Our thinking is that she'll come out of school and THEN start looking for an entry level position, where she will really start getting some experience. Yeah, it might be a fantastic waste of money... but, gambling on your kid is probably better than at the track

Soooo, the other part of the question: IF school is for sure, any specific feedback on the credibility (and therefore employability) of LCB London, vs. say CIA, NECI, J&W, FCI, etc.?

To be more blunt: going to LCB rather than, say, CIA, doesn't make you a laughing stock in the trade, does it?

Thanks again.

By Chefspike (Chefspike) on Wednesday, February 09, 2005 - 09:55 pm: Edit

No it does not, it makes your foolish with your money. but its YOUR money, and thank GOD your not in Florida cause Manny would think that its his, for his trade school.
Soooooooooooo.....there ya have it.
you could have gotten this same info from any local chef in your area, why did you come here for advice???? we are not exactly a easy to find web site.
eh???
Soooo....??????
and if she needs a chaparon while in England, call me. I'm like rent-a-dad, ain't nothing getting past me Dad, plus I could use the vacation.

By Chefmanny (Chefmanny) on Thursday, February 10, 2005 - 06:16 am: Edit

Send her to CIA if you are going to spend the time and money!.....LCB in the US is not the same as LCB in France. I am not familiar with the one in London. CIA is the best out there now.

By George (George) on Thursday, February 10, 2005 - 09:00 am: Edit

Again- If you are going to spend the money send her to an academically accredited program affiliated with a “real” college, where she can get an education with credits that can be applied to a "real" college when she wants to move on.

G

By Ladycake (Ladycake) on Thursday, February 10, 2005 - 09:02 pm: Edit

So, one more opinion...

I am a culinary educator. Please, I repeat, please... don't send your daughter to school without previous experience. I say that in response to the reality that most culinary school grads do not stick with the career.

Why waste your money? Why waste possibly years of your daughter's life? Cooking/baking is a lifestyle as well as a career. If she has not considered the fact that she will miss all family occasions, if she gets married, she will have a difficult time acclimating her spouse to the weird and all engulfing hours required to be a really good cook/chef/baker/whatever, if she has children she will not be there for their birthdays/Christmas/soccer games/anything. She needs to know that, in her bones. The only way to really know that is to work the business.

Give her a year in a restaurant o r bakery, preferably two. If she still can't live without working in the field, she's got the heart. Then spend your money to send her to the best (CIA or Cordon Bleu in France.) During the year or two while she is working, she can take language lessons. Let her get her world experience on her own ticket, that will come with the ability and adventureousness that she exhibits.

There are ways around the problems if she can't live without the food business, but she needs to know those problems upfront. I have read the only profession with a higher divorce rate than chefs is doctors. There are also the drug/alcohol/promiscuity factors to consider. Let her learn the social implications of this field first. Support her but have her go in eyes open.

May I add that these things seem to matter more to women entering the profession than men. We are a little more wired to involve ourselves with home and family stuff than the guys. Maybe they think they can beat it?

I am not trying to sound negative, after all "I am one." But I find that the students I have counseled are a lot more able to stand up to the lifestyle if they are forewarned and usually grateful to hear the truth for once. A lot of schools will give false info out, but not this one, not if I can help it :-)

By Andapanda (Andapanda) on Saturday, February 12, 2005 - 12:53 pm: Edit

Moyn2000:

I commend you for doing your research on WFP. You seem to be a caring father who wants the best for his daughter. You seem to have decided on sending your daughter to LCB-London. Far be it from me to dissuade you from your decision. I concur with the previous posts. Please be wary of the well-known schools with huge marketing budgets which successfully convince the uninformed to "buy" their degrees/diplomas. LCB-Ottawa is also offering(selling?) the Grand Diplome as LCB-London. The U.S. LCB affiliate schools' courses do not transfer to LCB-Paris, -Ottawa, -London, etc. You had asked, "question: how bad will the US name hurt the international brand?" LCB-Paris has already commercialized their name by having affiliate schools all over the U.S.A. with more coming online. Ditto for J & W U., Art Institutes, and to a lesser extent, NECI(3 campuses).
I will refrain from telling of my friend's laments of having to work with, endure, and teach, LCB-affiliate graduates working for him.
I disagree that CIA, J & W U., NECI, LCB-wherever, FCI, have the best pastry programs in the U.S.A.
I would rather suggest a pastry cooking apprenticeship, but your daughter has no pastry cooking experience.

I recommend for following pastry programs:

U.S.A.:

Grand Rapids Community College.
http://cookingcareer.shawguides.com/GrandRapidsCommunityCollege/?ci=92.13482&pi=1&q=1
Pastry instructor: Gilles Renusson, CMPC, U.S. National Pastry Team Coach.
http://www.grcc.edu/?PageID=1226

Schoolcraft College.
http://cookingcareer.shawguides.com/SchoolcraftCollege/?ci=92.13482&pi=12&q=1
Pastry instructor: Joseph Decker, CMPC.
http://www.schoolcraft.edu/pdfs/admissions/cap-bp.pdf

French Pastry School.
http://cookingcareer.shawguides.com/FrenchPastrySchool/?ci=94.13482&pi=1&q=1
Pastry instructors:
Jacquy Pfeiffer.
http://www.frenchpastryschool.com/pfeiffer.cfm
Sebastien Canonne, M.O.F.
http://www.frenchpastryschool.com/canonne.cfm

San Diego Culinary Institute.
http://cookingcareer.shawguides.com/SanDiegoCulinaryInstitute/?ci=134.13482&pi=6&q=1
Pastry instructor:
Yves Fournier.
http://www.sdci-inc.com/bakingcertificate.html

Some pastry schools to consider in Europe:

Switzerland:

Fachschule Richemont(Richemont Craft School).
http://www.richemont.cc/

DCT International Hotel & Culinary Arts School.
http://cookingcareer.shawguides.com/dct/?ci=141.13482&pi=1&q=1

France:

École Superieure de Cuisine Francaise Groupe Ferrandi(ESCF).
http://cookingcareer.shawguides.com/EcoleSuperieuredeCuisineFrancaiseGroupeFerrandi/?ci=142.13482&pi=3&q=1

École des Arts Culinaires et de l'Hotellerie, de Lyon(Institut Paul Bocuse).
http://cookingcareer.shawguides.com/EcoledesArtsCulinairesetdelHotellerieEACHLyon/?ci=142.13482&pi=14&q=1

École LeNotre.
http://www.lenotre.fr/en/Ecole_Lenotre/ecole_professionnelle.html

École Gastronomique Bellouet-Conseil de Paris.
http://bellouet.web.com/

I hope that you found this post helpful. I wish your daughter well. Take care.

By Andapanda (Andapanda) on Saturday, February 12, 2005 - 01:54 pm: Edit

Correction:

In the original above post, I had listed Bo Friberg, CMPC,
http://www.chefbo.com/
as a part-time instructor at SDCI, because he had taught there last year.
As of February 2005, Chef Friberg is the Department Chair of the Baking and Pastry Program at The Professional Culinary Institute in Campbell, California.

Professional Culinary Institute.
http://www.pcichef.com/

I apologize for this error.

By Chefspike (Chefspike) on Saturday, February 12, 2005 - 08:21 pm: Edit

Trash.

By Chefmanny (Chefmanny) on Saturday, February 12, 2005 - 08:45 pm: Edit

???????????/....garbage????

By Andapanda (Andapanda) on Monday, February 14, 2005 - 09:15 am: Edit

Moyn2000:

If you're going to send your daughter to London, England, I think that she would do better to study at Westminster Kingsway College.

http://www.westking.ac.uk/wkc_website/courses/courseDetail.asp?mOfA=f&courseID=1746

By Moyn2000 (Moyn2000) on Tuesday, February 15, 2005 - 10:30 am: Edit

I want to thank everyone for so much time and energy they've put into this. It has been VERY helpful. WFP has a good history of discussion on this, and I'm glad I asked everyone. In particular, I really appreciate the links to all the schools to check out, and the private messages I got.

We've got a lot to digest. I knew going into this that nothing beats hands on experience, and we're going to continue to try to find the right situation for our daughter to get that experience. We're going to keep looking at schools, but a little farther down the road, and where we can we're going to try to check them out in a little more detail (drop in if we're nearby, etc.).

Who knows, maybe one day my daughter will come knocking on one of your doors for a position, and if she does, I hope she'll be one that really "gets it". Thanks again everyone!

By Andapanda (Andapanda) on Tuesday, February 15, 2005 - 04:07 pm: Edit

Moyn2000:

Thank you for doing your research beforehand. I know of other schools in Europe which I have not posted any links to, because they would not be of interest to your daughter at this point.

I would be glad to be of help to you in the future if you wish to consult me. I have extensively studied culinary arts schools and pastry arts programs for several years before I had decided on one. I have also visited several of them: LACI(now defunct), LCB-Ottawa, Brown College(another LCB-affiliate), NECI-Essex, Montpelier, campuses, Schoolcraft College, Los Angeles Trade Tech College. When you evaluate a program, ask how long their "modules" are, e.g. ask a school how long a student is in a class before moving on to the next subject and instructor. You'll find that the famous culinary arts schools actually spend only 10, 11, or 15 days on a subject before moving on to the next subject and instructor. Visit the schools, tour their facilities, note how their students are dressed, are they unkempt and slovenly in appearance, or are they clean-shaven, without any visible jewelry, including watches? Watches should be fastened to the lapel of the chef's coat.
Remember that it is the "quality of education" which is important, not how famous the "name brands" are.

In a high-volume bakeshop in a high-end hotel kitchen, it won't matter what it reads on your daughter's degree or diploma. What matters is how efficiently she can work. Feel free to contact me off the forum if you like. Take care.

By Chefmanny (Chefmanny) on Tuesday, February 15, 2005 - 07:42 pm: Edit

I hope your daughter is as thorough as you are in her studies!!!!!!

By Andapanda (Andapanda) on Tuesday, February 15, 2005 - 09:33 pm: Edit

Moyn2000:

Does your daughter speak Italiano? I wanted to post this URL under the Italy section of my original post but didn't find the URL until now.

Italy:

Etoile Instituto Supiore Arti Culinarie.
http://www.istitutoetoile.com/web/mainfr.htm

Another question to ask prospective culinary arts schools(and community colleges) is the amount of time the students actually practice in the laboratory, or do they simply "shadow" the chef? For example, when I visited the LCB-Ottawa school 5 years ago, I was told that the students do not actually work in the school restaurant kitchen, but merely "shadow" the chefs. It is a common practice for culinary schools to have their students shadow the chefs, or watch the chef-instructor conduct a demonstration via an overhead mirror(or monitor), because it would be too expensive for every student to practice and make their own mistakes.
Conversely, if memory serves me correctly, when I visited Schoolcraft College in August 2004, they had recently built a new state-of-the-art kitchen less than 2 years ago and every student-station has 4 burners and a steam-jacketed kettle! If I can be of help to you, please don't hesitate to contact me off the forum. Take care.

By Andapanda (Andapanda) on Wednesday, February 16, 2005 - 09:09 am: Edit

Moyn2000:

Here's an another option to consider: Grand Rapids Community College plans to offer an A.S. degree in Baking and Pastry Arts (tentatively) by the Fall 2007 semester with advanced courses in pastries, and chocolates(and sugar work?).
GRCC requires a "cooperative education experience(externship)" course to be done as part of the certificate and degree programs. The externship can be done anywhere in the world. However, it is incumbent upon the student to find employment, but some of the chef-instructors have leads in the U.K. and Europe since the C.M.C. and C.M.P.C. chef-instructors are from Scotland and France, respectively.
Therefore, you could still send your daughter to England, or Europe, and still have her close to home during the rest of her studies. Contact Randy Sahajdack, Program Director. Telephone 616-234-3696 Email: rsahajda@grcc.edu
I concur with Ladycake and the other posters on this thread that it would behoove your daughter to get some baking experience prior to enrolling in a pastry arts program--she would be ahead of her peers. Take Ladycake's advice and have her work for 2 years. Take Chefspike's advice and have her name be put on Schoolcraft College's 2-year wait list. What do you think?

By Moyn2000 (Moyn2000) on Tuesday, February 22, 2005 - 04:35 pm: Edit

Thanks again everyone for the followup and positive comments. Again, at the moment we're keeping an open eye on all schools but really focusing on some work experience first.

Thanks for the Italian lead, but she's pretty much limited to English with a little French and Spanish...

Thanks again!

By Ladycake (Ladycake) on Tuesday, February 22, 2005 - 06:04 pm: Edit

Andy,

I was recently exposed to a heated discussion about Schoolcraft. Give me a general feeling about the education there, would you? The folks I was talking to were very critical. The photos showed students sitting at desks with monitors on each one watching the chef's demo. Good or bad? What did you think?

By Andapanda (Andapanda) on Thursday, February 24, 2005 - 09:59 am: Edit

Ladycake:

Michigan apparently has the highest number per capita of exemplary community college culinary arts programs of any state in the U.S.A. For example, Northwestern Michigan College has a new Culinary Arts facility as of January 2004, and a galley to teach cooks for the maritime industry, Oakland Community College's program was developed by a C.M.C. and has a well-established apprenticeship program, Macomb Community College also has an apprenticeship program and a team which competes at the Culinary Olympics. That's why I moved to Michigan to return to school.
I would have liked to have eavesdropped in on that heated discussion about Schoolcraft College. Did that occur at the ACF regional conference? I'm not a student at Schoolcraft College, but I'll give you my impressions, positive and negative, of their programs. I still think that they have one of the best Culinary Arts and Pastry Arts programs in the U.S.A. comparable to the private culinary schools when one compares the quality and value of the education offered there vis-a-vis those expensive private culinary schools. All schools schools have their shortcomings and no school is perfect. There is always room for improvement.
For comparison purposes, I had made my own flow charts comparing Schoolcraft College with GRCC and other community colleges. I couldn't afford to attend the private culinary- or pastry arts schools, so the comparison is merely academic. I had planned years ago to return to school to study pastry arts when I had found extremely few pastry cooking apprenticeships in the U.S.A.--inspite of what the ACF had told me, and what I had read on their website. I had written to every address listed on their website with an asterisk indicating the "possibility of a pastry apprenticeship" and was subsequently advised to contact one of their recommended community colleges. Besides, it was impracticable for me to do an apprenticeship at my age.
Superficially, Schoolcraft College seems quite impressive: 3 C.M.C.s & 1 C.M.P.C. on its faculty, 2-year old state-of-the-art kitchen, with flat-panel screen computers for Power Point presentations. I cannot comment on the photographs you saw. GRCC does not use overhead mirrors nor monitors for demos. The students must gather around the instructor to observe the demo, and some students take notes while others will invariably ignore the instructor, talk with their friends, etc., which happens in every classroom.
Schoolcraft's teams tend to do well at competitions--they were Knowledge Bowl champions last year. I had talked with someone who had met them last year at that competition, and he told me that they had concentrated so much on winning the competition, that they weren't even cordial towards him. Last semester, a classmate told me that her friend had attended Schoolcraft's Culinary Arts program, and afterwards, wished that she had attended GRCC instead.
Schoolcraft offers a post-graduate certificate for the student who already has an A.S. in Culinary Arts. The program is 11 months induration. The student is rotated through all of the stations in their student-run restaurant kitchen. Schoolcraft's intention is to attempt to train the students to become sous chefs upon graduation(at least in theory). Whether or not the program is successful in training students to become "sous chefs" directly after completion of the program remains to be seen--only time will tell.
I compared Schoolcraft's Pastry program with GRCC's and other schools' programs. Schoocraft's Pastry program consists of only 2 courses: Baking(1st semester) and Pastry(2nd semester). They take the entire semester to teach the Pastry course whereas GRCC's Pastry course is only 7 weeks in duration. I don't know what subjects are actually covered, nor do I know which textbook they use(The GRCC Pastry instructor uses his own book/binder of recipes/formulas. It's 700+ pages in length.) Schoolcraft's Baking and Pastry Arts program began in September 2004. Schoolcraft's curriculum impressed me strictly as a skill development-oriented program. There are few management courses offered or required as part of their degree or certificate programs.

By Andapanda (Andapanda) on Thursday, February 24, 2005 - 09:59 am: Edit

Many Culinary Arts(and Culinary Management) students at GRCC originally wanted to attend Schoolcraft as their first choice, but didn't want to be put on their 2-year wait-list because Schoolcraft admits(if memory serves me correctly) only 90 Culinary Arts- and 32 Baking and Pastry Arts students per year. Some of those young people were impressed with Schoolcraft's reputation, faculty, new kitchens and computers, teams, etc. However, that wasn't exactly what I was searching for in a pastry program. Conversely, I do not recommend Schoolcraft nor GRCC for the student intending on becoming an "artisan" or commercial baker. Both Pastry programs are designed to teach "restaurant baking(e.g. cooks learning how to bake bread for their restaurants)," but not strictly making "artisanal" breads(although artisanal breads are produced in class) nor commercial baking. Such a student would do better to search for a baking program that emphasizes artisan or commercial baking. Schoolcraft attempts to emulate the famous private culinary schools, and they have done a remarkable job.
I concluded that GRCC had a more comprehensive curriculum than Schoocraft. GRCC requires more management courses as part of their degree and certificate programs than Schoolcraft. GRCC has 4 cake decorating courses whereas Schoolcraft has none. However, I'm not totally satisfied with GRCC's programs here either. I think that they should have stricter grooming standards starting with the instructors and then the students. Some instructors wear beards and watches. Many men students have long hair, some down to their waist, wear beards, goatees, sideburns, earrings, piercings, watches, and some of the women also wear earrings and watches, improper footwear and headwear. Such grooming standards would never have been permitted at that ACF UNaccredited program which I had attended, but this phenomenon is quite common at culinary ARTS schools because they must allow people to be ARTISTIC. I'm politically INcorrect, and I say the schools should be called "cookery" schools and teach students to become cooks, not ARTISTS! Perhaps we would then have less CON-Fusion cuisines and actually have more competent entry-level cooks entering the trade, and a lower rate of attrition in the industry. A lower rate of attrition would also mean lower labor costs because less retraining would be required.
Another aspect which is not discussed on this forum, nor seldom mentioned in discussions about the famous culinary arts schools is does a prospective student ever consider the teaching "modules" which the school uses? For example, J & W U. uses a 9-day module in which the students rotate into another course and instructor every 9 days(CIA every 10, NECI every 11, LCB every 15). How much could a student with little or no cooking experience possible learn in 9-15 days? Are those famous schools such a bargain considering the extremely short duration in which those subjects are covered?
Another problem which many of the private culinary schools face is declining enrollment(thus, the emphasis on MARKETING), inconsistent standards or quality, faculty retention, and many of them have resorted to hiring recent graduates to teach the courses. Are those famous schools providing high-QUALITY education at a GOOD VALUE? I've met world-class chefs who were graduates of vocational programs. That's why I'm a staunch advocate of apprenticeships and vocational programs. One not need to be a "trust fund" child nor be wealthy to get a quality culinary education. This might be of interest to anyone considering a private culinary school--check out the thread: WanaBe a Chef: How About-California Culinary Academy, San Francisco, California. Cateringkid had a great post!

By Ladycake (Ladycake) on Thursday, February 24, 2005 - 05:04 pm: Edit

Why do you think the private schools are facing a drop in enrollment?

Also, when the students move on after the 9-15 days, do they come back? In the program I attended many years ago, we would move through each module each semester. Here, they are repeated as back up classes. By that I mean, a student will learn a unit in the two or so weeks alotted, then will be rotated through the station two more times for two weeks each. Is that the norm?

Chèrie

By Jowater (Jowater) on Friday, February 25, 2005 - 05:58 pm: Edit

I think I lost my last message

By Jowater (Jowater) on Friday, February 25, 2005 - 09:36 pm: Edit

I DID LOSE MY MESSAGE!(SIGH!)
So, I worked in fast food then at a hotel as a rounsman before I graduated high school.
I worked a year before I went to the CIA.then I went itwuz there or J. W.
When I went to visit I smelt the M. J. wafting down the hallways.
I only felt I got anything out of it from my past experience.
To this day I hesitate telling anyone I graduated from the CIA.I prove myself first,then tell them.
I have more but I lost a whole good E-mail and I am burnt!

By Andapanda (Andapanda) on Friday, March 04, 2005 - 03:22 pm: Edit

Ladycake:
I really had to be a "MUCKRAKER" for this post!
Three decades ago, the Culinary Istitute of America and Johnson & Wales University were the only two schools in which a prospective culinary arts student could choose from. Later came other private culinary schools such as New England Culinary Institute and California Culinary Academy.
I believe that many of the private culinary arts schools are facing issues of faculty retention, deteriorating quality control and academic standards, and declining enrollment, because they are profit-motivated(see NEA article) and might have expanded too rapidly. Has the culinary education market reached a saturation point? For decades, they had had previously good reputations, then they had become greedy during the culinary arts mania of recent years. I'm not at liberty to mention names of specific schools facing such problems, but I'll give you some hints: the schools were famous, located in the northeastern U.S., and had more than one campus. Ask them if they hire recent graduates to teach their courses.
Here are some articles about culinary schools--draw your own conclusions.

CULINARY TRUST SCHOLARSHIP INFORMATION.
http://www.dosmundos.com/editions/Vol24-10-21/education/edu-Aeng.htm
http://theculinarytrust.com/
IN A TIGHT JOB MARKET, MANY TURNING TO CULINARY CAREERS.
http://katu.com/education/story.asp?ID=71181
TIME MAGAZINE ARTICLE ABOUT CULINARY SCHOOLS.
http://www.time.com/time/archive/preview/0,10987,994185,00.html
MORE STUDENTS ENROLLING AT AREA CULINARY SCHOOLS.
http://www.uh.edu/admin/media/topstories/2002/hc/200208/20020826culinary.html
LEARNING TO COOK: CHEF TERCZAK ON "LEARNING TO COOK."
http://www.thetampabaycookingacademy.com/learning.html
EXCERPTS FROM "SEX AND THE KITCHEN: UNDER THE COUNTER AND OVER THE
TOP" BY ANDREA FRONCILLO.
http://www.sexandthekitchen.com/Selected_Excerpts_Froncillo.pdf
CHEF TO BE. A WOMAN IN HER MID-40S MAKES CAREER CHANGE.
http://cheftobe.com/
FIRST NATIONS' MUSQUEAM INDIAN BAND'S CULINARY ARTS PROGRAM.
http://www.firstbusiness.ca/guides/culinary.pdf
LPG BLAST ROCKS QC CULINARY SCHOOL, 5 HURT.
http://www.abs-cbnnews.com/NewsStory.aspx?section=METRO&oid=69233
CINNCINATI STATE TECHNICAL AND COMMUNITY COLLEGE OPENS MIDWEST CULINARY INSTITUTE.
http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20041110/LIFE01/411100355/1086
http://www.cinstate.cc.oh.us/FutureStudent/Admission/MidwestCulinaryInstitute.htm
FLORIDA COMMUNITY COLLEGE-JACKSONVILLE WANTS TO DEVELOP CULINARY SCHOOL.
http://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/showstory.php?Story_id=41860
ARTICLES ABOUT SCHOOLCRAFT COLLEGE.
http://www.detnews.com/2003/food/0304/21/f01-141935.htm
http://www.detnews.com/2001/schools/0110/18/e03-320750.htm
CANTON(MICHIGAN) CAREER PROGRAM IN THE SPOTLIGHT.
http://www.detnews.com/2004/schools/0405/19/c03-154879.htm
MICKY RECOMMENDS GRCC.
http://www.starchefs.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=707&sid=244eb68ddd42deb8297f87e7133e7332
THOSE ANNOYING CULINARY SCHOOL GRADUATES.
http://www.cheftalkcafe.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1218

By Andapanda (Andapanda) on Friday, March 04, 2005 - 03:22 pm: Edit

Please refer to Steve 9389's post on the "WanaBe a Chef: Advice from graduates from reputable (J&W,LCB affiliates) and community colleges" thread.
NEA ARTICLE ABOUT PROPRIETARY SCHOOLS(CEC IS MENTIONED).
http://www2.nea.org/he/heupdate/vol10no4.pdf
VOCATIONAL EDUCATION FACES CHALLENGES.
http://www.kctcs.net/todaysnews/2004/20040831.html#vocational
COMMUNITY COLLEGES FIGHT FOR PIECE OF FUNDING PIE.
http://katu.com/education/story.asp?ID=75139
COMMUNITY COLLEGE ENROLLMENT SURGES.
http://www.cnn.com/2003/EDUCATION/05/14/community.colleges.ap/
AMERICA'S COMMUNITY COLLEGES: ON THE ASCENT.
http://usinfo.state.gov/journals/itsv/0602/ijse/cohen.htm
THE ECONOMIC BENEFITS OF SUBBACALLAUREATE EDUCATION: RESULTS FROM NATIONAL STUDIES.
http://www.tc.columbia.edu/ccrc/PAPERS/Briefs/Brief02.htm
TRAINING AMERICA'S WORKFORCE: A PRIVATE SECTOR BASE LINE AND ITS IMPACT ON NATIONAL SECURITY.
http://www.ndu.edu/library/ic6/93-S-02.pdf
FOR-PROFIT COLLEGE: COSTLY LESSON(CEC owns CCA as part of the LCB-schools conglomeration. Refer to the 'WanaBe a Chef: How About-California Culinary Academy, San Francisco, California' thread).
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/01/31/60minutes/main670479.shtml
CULINARY SCHOOL OF WASHINGTON DEFRAUDS STUDENTS.
http://www.ticas.org/ticas_d/2004_11_09_Nunn_Excerpts.htm
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/cgi-bin/getcase.pl?court=dc&navby=case&no=935083b
CALIFORNIA SCHOOL OF CULINARY ARTS INVOLVED IN LAWSUIT.
http://www.pacificemployers.com/Newsletter/PE%20NL%20November%2003.pdf
http://www.proskauer.com/news_publications/newsletters/California/2003_11_00
http://www.centurycc.com/newsletters/newsletter2003q4.pdf
DUBRELLE FRENCH CULINARY SCHOOL LTD. INVOLVED IN LAWSUIT.
http://www.coxhanson.ca/publications.asp?cmPageID=259
JOHNSON & WALES UNIVERSITY LAWSUIT.
http://www.wciv.com/news/stories/1204/195680.html
http://www.charlestoncitypaper.com/layout.asp?id=41369&action=detail&catID=8257&parentID=8257
JOHNSON & WALES UNIVERSITY CLOSES NORFOLK, VA. CAMPUS.
http://www.highbeam.com/library/doc0.asp?docid=1G1:120308289&refid=ink_pubnews&skeyword=&teaser=
JOHNSON & WALES UNIVERSITY OFFERS BEER BREWING COURSE.
http://unbound.intrasun.tcnj.edu/archives/business/old/homework.html
THE CULINARY INSTITUTE OF AMERICA FILES LAWSUIT TO PROTECT NAME.
http://www.hotelsupplyresource.com/article9469.html?POSTNUKESID=6a240e2820f475be525d98d00d6f0843
CULINARY INSTITUTE OF AMERICA UNETHICAL AT COMPETITION.
http://www.kitchenproject.com/SimmeringChefs/ethicartical.htm
COMMUNITY COLLEGE MISHANDLED COMPLAINT.
http://www.aauw.org/newsroom/news/national04.cfm
HOWARD V. BISHOP STATE COMMUNITY COLLEGE.
http://www.aauw.org/laf/cases/howard.cfm
http://www.aauw.org/newsroom/pressreleases/041203.cfm
NECI CULINARY STUDENT CHARGED WITH RAPE.
http://www.timesargus.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20041111/NEWS/411110334/1003
NECI EMBRACES "SLOW FOOD".
http://www.timesargus.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20041028/NEWS/410280324/1003/NEWS02
The CALIFORNIA CULINARY ACADEMY COMES TO AMADOR COUNTY.
http://www.ledger-dispatch.com/life/lifeview.asp?c=127664
ONLINE CULINARY EDUCATION.
http://www.onlinedegreezone.com/onlinedegrees/Culinary_Arts_and_Related_Services_Online_College_Degree_fn1.php