Archive through October 11, 1999

I have been privy to many a debate over whether cooking was an art or a craft. Most artists say we are artists most chefs I have talked to say we are craftsmen...carpenters rather than sculptors. What do y'all think?

By Chefk (Chefk) on Saturday, October 02, 1999 - 02:17 am: Edit

I think you run into issues with the metaphor not representing what we really do. We sell a product that is an entire experience, an evening to dine. While an artist or a craftsman creates an object to be purchase and enjoyed and appreciated for a long period of time, our work is consumed and, while hopefully remembered fondly, is one of hundreds of thousands of meals one enjoys in a lifetime. Let's give ourselves the credit of being unique and also being a life sustaining force in our work, whether art, craft or trade.

By cheftim on Sunday, October 03, 1999 - 12:26 pm: Edit

We are truly the greatest of artist in that what we produce should in the end appeal to all the senses, create an emotional response, educate and make a profit.

By W.DeBord on Sunday, October 03, 1999 - 01:46 pm: Edit

I don't believe it's the media you use that qualifies your product to be art. It's the quality of the skill that brings media the title of "art".

Who sits in judgement of skill? Art or craftsmenship? Art critiques can't agree nor can laymen. Yet I have been witness to great art in the visual field and fine dining. Many people are fine craftsmen, few grow to become fine artists.

By ann on Sunday, October 03, 1999 - 10:46 pm: Edit

Thanks for all the feedback! I am not sure if i agree that chefs sell a product that is an entire experience, an evening to dine. Food is only one part of the dining experience. I have not been witness to a successful chef that has not been in partnership with a good wine guy, front of the house manager, proffesional waitstaff, good busboys, restaurant designer and good p.r. person. All these things create the experience. In that sense it is like theater and is an art form. Strictly the food on the plate...is that art?

By W.DeBord on Monday, October 04, 1999 - 12:48 am: Edit

Sure, why not, if the food is honestly excellent in taste, alone, that can be an art form. A beautiful arrangement that takes place on a plate can be art.

Art that only impacts one sense, say the sense of hearing is as valid as art that we see in musuems. If other senses can be singled out why shouldn't taste be included? My experience with great art is it may contact me through just one sense enlightening other senses or stir emotion and thought. Food is capiable of triggering those same responses.

I've never been a performer but I do feel at times that what I'm doing in the kitchen is performance art. I may move and respond well relating to my kitchen enviroment, but anyone watching me would not call it theater or dance.

This is a good question "...is it like theater"? I don't think it would be accepted as art by the masses but techniquely(SP?) it can be art in theory.

Ann what draws you to question this?

By Morgane on Monday, October 04, 1999 - 12:38 pm: Edit

Cooking is definitely a art. Actually it should be the 8th art... Seriously I think a lot of thought is given to the appearance of the plate. The disposition of the food, placement of the sauce. And there is also fashion movement just like in any other art form. You could qualify the nouvelle cuisine of minimalist approach..

In Japan, everything has to be eye pleasing as well as delicious. The Chinese also have develop quite a art of presentation. Don't you just love the little pagoda made out of a carrot?


Morgane

By ann on Monday, October 04, 1999 - 11:02 pm: Edit

It all started with breakfast. My boyfriend at the time (a computer programer), made perfect eggs over easy, good crispy bacon and sour-dough toast.
The meal appealed to all my senses, created an emotional response...it had all the aspects that all of you have stated that makes cooking an art.
I do not disagree that cooking and food can be a direct tap into our emotional lives, trancendent like art. So is wine, cheese, coffee, tea, and a sunny day where the air is so soft it's like being wrapped in a blanket. There are so many things that are like art. All people who are very good at what they do and love it have an art about them. I don't think that makes Charlie Trotter or any other chef at the top of their field and artist.

By Cheftim (Cheftim) on Monday, October 04, 1999 - 11:16 pm: Edit

To paraphrase a Supreme Court Justice when talking about pornography, "I can't define it but I know it when I see it."

So to with art don't you think.

By W.DeBord on Tuesday, October 05, 1999 - 09:05 am: Edit

OH YES!!!

Ann then what does define a artist?

I went to 3 1/2 years of art school. I have won two scholarships. One was a competion held at a national level. The other was at The American Academy Of Art were I was chosen as one of four students out of hundreds of art students. I have studied art. I have spent 8 years of my life selling my fine art, jurying into elite national exhibits. I am indeed a fine artist. But because I am not pursuing that field at this moment does that strip me of the title of Artist?

By W.DeBord on Tuesday, October 05, 1999 - 09:26 am: Edit

Man has always struggled with qualifing what art is valid and what isn't. You have groups of people (Art critics, Gallery owners and Musuem curators)who study this and pass their judgement. Then you have the average man who thinks more conservatively. They are fighting over this (what is art?)right now in New York over a exhibit.

I find some types of art to be far more skilled and valid then others. I think this is what your saying.

Man can not and will not ever truely define and qualify art and hold it to a description. I think your seeking to limit it's definition and who may hold the title of artist.

I respect your right to have a strong opinion and your own taste to decide what you think. You say "there are so many things like art" if it's not art then do you feel it's craft? Is it the media of food that stops you from thinking of it as art? Or is it that you don't think anyone has produced a fine enough product in a kitchen to take it to that level?

By ann on Tuesday, October 05, 1999 - 03:18 pm: Edit

W. DeBord-- not pursuing art does not strip you of the title of artist just as I hope that me not pursuing cooking anymore does not strip me of the title of cook. Yes, Yes, Yes, I beleive cooking is a craft. I don't think that the artistry that is inherent in the act of cooking can be recreated in a professional setting. The restaurant kitchen is like a printing press spitting out copies of the original idea, colors are altered, flavors are changed. On the weekends the printing press has to work so fast quality goes down. I physically cannot call that art. The restaurant as a whole is art, the creating of that entire dining experience, as I have said before, is theatre.

By W.DeBord on Wednesday, October 06, 1999 - 08:51 am: Edit

Ann I certainly agree with you that art is not whats going on in 99.99 percent of the profesional kitchens.

I do believe and have eaten 3 times in my life food that was truely a work of art. I think there are and have been some(meaning they could be counted on no more than ten fingers)chefs that are well past good craftsmen. I judge them not based on their presentation but on the quality of their work.

I would be far more selective then to include Charlie Trotter on that list. Some of them would be like the great masters of painting (dead).

I don't see any restaurant as a whole able to be "ART" only theatre.

I'd love to hear Georges' opinion?

By ann on Friday, October 08, 1999 - 01:55 am: Edit

ooh. Somewhere there are a bunch of great dead actors rolling in their graves!!! It all boils down to the meaning of art (which cannot be defined absolutely). Food is such a basic necessity. And to consider such a small amount of what we consume as actual "art" is problematic for me. In the art world (formal) there is "good" art and "bad" art. Based on this limited model would Charlie Trotter be considered a "bad" artist in your eyes? Would you consider farming an art? The sheer pleasure of going into my grandmother's garden, picking a tomato (perfectly ripe, variety perfectly matched for the soil and weather), sliced with a little salt and pepper haunts me in the same way as some paintings, in the same way as the best dining experience I have ever had....Food taps into our soul like paintings and sculpture but I can't seem to draw a line to where food becomes art.

George?

By George (George) on Friday, October 08, 1999 - 08:46 am: Edit

There are many different forms and styles of art (look at what's happening in NYC with the Brooklyn Museum). I fell it's up to the individual and their inner voice to determine what art is to them. Its such an subjective personal matter that what others think is irrelevant, unless they are funding you of course.

Looking at show/competition work done in cold and hot food cold these days I would look at that as art much as an original painting.

I think that production food from a fine dining restaurant can also be considered art, but not so much as an original masterpiece, but rather as a numbered signed print or lithograph of an original. Art none the less...

By W.DeBord on Friday, October 08, 1999 - 09:08 am: Edit

Why is it problematic? You have to think about painting...Everyone at one time or an other has painted something. Our world in the U.S. has paint everywhere, walls, ceilings etc... Only a few of the great masses of humanity can create fine art from that medium. Only a small amount of what we see that's painted is actual art.

I can't define art as "Good" and "Bad" only what I personally find valid or not. For instance a man got national press when he covered a hotel room in melted cheese. It was throne at random at all the surfaces. I can't consider that art because anyone could have done it even a ape. It didn't involve any level of skill.

The act of gardening is a craft because plants grow freely provided soil, in even the worst of conditions. But on the other hand I have seen landscapes that were delibrately planted which took great skill. The truely gifted landscape artitect is creating art.

Art happens when substance meets great talent.

By W.DeBord on Friday, October 08, 1999 - 09:09 am: Edit

Charlie Trotter has great skill. He does innovate cooking so yes he is an artist. I personally don't see him as a great chef because I don't appreciate his style. For me he has a abstract quality that is still nieve (SP?) not refined.

There are some abstractionists that are truely gifted. You can see their knowledge and skill in their work. Then there are abstractionaists who don't really have talent. Those people work in that style because they can't do more. They lack knowledge, talent, skill, insight and their work is meaningless. A abstract painting requires great skill which can be seen, if it needs a statement of purpose to explain it, it losses all validity for me. Charlie Trotter still has to state his intent.

Escoffiers' work needs no statement of intent. It stands on it's own as work done by a fine artist of his medium.

By ann on Friday, October 08, 1999 - 03:21 pm: Edit

How did Escoffiers' work taste?

By W.DeBord on Friday, October 08, 1999 - 08:04 pm: Edit

Good one! HA!!!... Well done!

Although I didn't eat his food you can read of his work.

By Chef Mars on Saturday, October 09, 1999 - 08:39 pm: Edit

Language has rules, and one of them is to use a standard dictionary. I would suggest that you all try Webster's Third International as that has been the accepted standard for English useage since it replaced Webster's Second International, and read how the artist and craftsman are defined.

For a bit of guidance, we can also try this from a true artist, who also practiced his craft of writing:
"Nature, pitiless enchantress, ever victorious rival, leave me! Cease to tempt my desires and my pride! The study of the beautiful is a duel in which the artist cries out with fear before he is vanquished." __Charles Baudelaire said that.

"We are commercial craftspeople, not artists" __I said that.

Culinarily Yours,
Chef Mars

By Cook on Sunday, October 10, 1999 - 01:04 pm: Edit

Since you seem so fond of dictionary, you should know that useage is not a word. The correct word is usage. We could all use dictionary once in a while, even you.

By W.DeBord on Sunday, October 10, 1999 - 02:11 pm: Edit

I am a horible speller. I'd use spell check if I could on line. This isn't an english class, it's real life idiots like me conversing and learning.

If you know the difference between fine art verses craft and how it relates to cooking then please explain it.

Unforunately your quote by Charles Baudelaire is weak. As a artist I would strongly disagree with his view. Art is not a study of "the beautiful"! Professional artists have no fear they are explorers. They have respect and admiration of natures beauty but challenge it constantly.

I don't see how this qoute is relievent to the subject of cooking as art?

Chef Mars you stated your view but can you defend it?

By ann on Sunday, October 10, 1999 - 06:25 pm: Edit

O.K. Mars, I hate to bicker with the only person who has agreed with me so far in this conversation
BUT...
I looked artist up in Webster's (New World Dictionary, Third College edition--did not have the other one). The second definition being "2 a person who does anything very well, with imagination and a feeling for form, effect, etc."
How does this support our argument that cooking is a craft? I also agree with W.DeBord, how does Baudelaire's quote relavant to the argument at hand? Please explain

By W.DeBord on Monday, October 11, 1999 - 09:53 am: Edit

I don't mean to be lazy (but I don't have a dictionary) could you tell me how they define craft?

I would also agree with Chef Mars in the respect that most/nearly all of us are craftsmen in the kitchen. I follow someone elses' receipes day in and day out. But as a trained artist I can also produce artistic work in the media of food. Every holiday I create visual displays that I design. They certainly aren't as perfect or limited as displays at culinary competitions but it is work that very few people can do.

I like George response, in some fine dining situations it is like a reproduction. The original artist/head chef is present and over seas his craftsmen reproducing his art. Just as I've stood over the pressman controling the color of my prints. It's exactly the same with a different media! ANN THIS IS ART! THERE REALLY CAN'T BE ANY DOUBT ABOUT IT! You must agree or admit your dissagreeing just for the sake of playing devils advocate.

By ann on Monday, October 11, 1999 - 06:19 pm: Edit

craft-1. a special skill, art, or dexterity
2. an occupation requiring special skill; esp.,any of the manual arts

I like George's response about the lithographs and prints also. I will also concede on the following conditions.
1. all restaurants are theatre.
2. if there is art in the food of a restaurant it is a reproduction of the original work.
3. mothers and fathers who are good cooks are artists.
4. cheesemaking is an art.

I am not playing devils advocate!!!!!!!