The Great Hall
HAACP question


WebFoodPros.com: The Great Hall: HAACP question
By Beachbumcook (Beachbumcook) on Thursday, August 12, 2004 - 10:45 am: Edit

Iím faced with a throw it out or keep it question.

Iím doing the beach BBQ thing as in another post. I had a ½ hotel pan of pulled pork that was held at temperature (160+) for 3 hours then chilled quickly and frozen for a week. I defrosted it in the fridge no problem and would normally bring it up to heat quickly and serve it. The problem is tonightís BBQ is going to be a washout because of the storms.

Would it be safe to freeze it again and then reheat it? Itís very low moisture, high fat and acid product, because of the BBQ sauce and it has been handled with care. I think Iím OK but am looking for a second or third opinion.

Thanks

BBC

By Cheftim (Cheftim) on Thursday, August 12, 2004 - 11:26 am: Edit

Is it worth even the chance that someone may get sick?
Throw it out.

By Beachbumcook (Beachbumcook) on Thursday, August 12, 2004 - 05:27 pm: Edit

With all due respect we all take the chance of making some one sick whenever we serve a rare burger or eggs anything but fully cooked, go to work with a cold or worse and a myriad of other possibilities.

Its easy to throw out product when the money doesn't come out of your own pocket.

I have worked in corporoate enviroments where they had guidelines for chichen that allowed heating, refrigerating and reheating up to twice, and that was chicken.

I personally would not hesitate to serve it to my family at this time, after proper reheating.

So would there be any increased chance of trouble because or freezing it and reheating?

BBC

By Chefrev (Chefrev) on Thursday, August 12, 2004 - 05:51 pm: Edit

I was always taught, "When in doubt, throw it out." Yeah, it's easy for us to say chuck it because it's not our money, but how much more money would you have to pay out in potential law suits if some one got sick off of that thrice reheated pork? That and the possibility of a lost reputation you're just starting to build seems to far outweigh the cost of the product itself. It only takes once to sink a business.

By Lisareid (Lisareid) on Thursday, August 12, 2004 - 09:31 pm: Edit

...I was under the impression that the pork had not yet been reheated even the first time after its refrigerated thaw, knowing that the BBQ on the beach would be a washout due to the storms. With that in mind, my guess is that it would probably be OK to refreeze, as far as a food safety question is concerned. You're correct w/ your listing of the myriad opportunities of making people ill through the technically incorrect handling of food or through working while being sick. My thought would be as to whether the 2nd freeze would compromise the quality of the product, but that may come from my relative lack of food handling experience, though I've had academic training in food safety, nutrition and some cooking (I've not finished culinary training yet) Hopefully, some of you might share your experiences w/ me so that I can better know how far you can go w/ saving cooked foods. Thanks-

By Chefgibz0 (Chefgibz0) on Friday, August 13, 2004 - 08:39 am: Edit

O.K.......How much poundage are we talking and what cut of the hog? If it is just a couple of pounds.....chuck it. As far as the refreezing thing I do not see it as a problem of making it bad or unsafe. Taste on the other hand, that is a whole other animal. The other question is when this pork was held in a hotel pan at 160 degrees was it on a buffet? Sneeze guards? Most health departments state that if a food is on a buffet you MUST dispose of it. Is this your free standing or are you working for "the Man"??

By Beachbumcook (Beachbumcook) on Friday, August 13, 2004 - 10:22 am: Edit

Answers to some of the questions-
It's pork shoulder, brazed and pulled apart removing all non muscle then cooked with BBQ sauce. There is about 15# of it, cost me about $30 and 9 hours, but would net about $300. It reheats beautifully and the flavor is still there, you just have to add some more BBQ sauce (Bullseye 3 parts to 1 part cider vinegar) and you cannot tell it from fresh made (might actually be better)
It was held covered in an improvised steam table behind the line, no public contact. It's a free standing gig, I pay the owners of the property a per plate charge and the rest is my responsibility. I've done very well with it up to this rain out.

From what I recall from sanitation, because of the low moisture, high fat, high acid and sugar content it is a relatively safe product to freeze and reheat.

All of this said I decided to just take it down to the fire house for our weekly meeting. It was devoured in about 15 minutes.

I'm still intereseted in any links to related food handleing, reheating and re freezing. (Anapanda??) ;<)

Thanks to all!

BBC

By Chefgibz0 (Chefgibz0) on Friday, August 13, 2004 - 11:35 am: Edit

I thought about finding some health department links for ya BeachBumKook but then I saw you request Andapanda and I said "by the time I find one link Anda prolly has 20 links and typed a disertation on it on the thread so by the time I get to it....." fuggedaboudit!

By Cheftim (Cheftim) on Friday, August 13, 2004 - 05:15 pm: Edit

Without any respect, the pork was trash after the first night. Unless you were using a blast chiller there is no way 15 lbs of pulled pork in a 1/2 hotel pan cooled down fast enough for it to be safely re-served.

Your "low moisture, high fat, high acid and sugar" angle is a line of crap.

In addition there are know food safety authorities that would say it is allowable to freeze, defrost and then re-freeze cooked food. Unless it's a corporate bean counter weighing potential profit against the possibility of injuring or killing someone.

Here is the real situation: Your working out side, with primitive equipment, in circumstance that already break standing health codes. Now you want to re-serve the food from last time that is questionalbe at best. Well you obviously have little regard for food safety as it is so what the hell.

My goodness, if you are truly a CIA grad my condolences to your school and all those that were so unsuccesful in teaching you respect for the culnary arts.

By Chefrev (Chefrev) on Friday, August 13, 2004 - 06:09 pm: Edit

Beachbumcook

Fine, you were lucky...THIS time, but it's a roll of the dice every time you try and save money at the risk of food-borne illness. Next time, what if some one gets sick? Never mind the lack of regard it shows to serve rehashed food twice. An outbreak of food poisoning will sink your bottom line, and your business faster than a couple pounds of BBQ pork in the dumpster.

Most food borne bacteria are tasteless, odorless (at first anyway) and dang hardy, some are even anaerobic (can live without oxygen).

Hypotheical situation: They may have scarfed down the meal, and just hours later felt stomach cramps, nausea, and vomiting. By then you'd have packed up and gone home. But people remember where they ate last and are real good at putting two and two together usually. You want to bet the news media would have loved to have run a headline reading,

"LOCAL FIREMEN HAVE FIRE DOWN BELOW AFTER BBQ DINNER: LOCAL CATERER TRYING TO PUT OUT LEGAL BLAZES"

By Beachbumcook (Beachbumcook) on Friday, August 13, 2004 - 09:58 pm: Edit

Here is something for the more pompous "school of hard knox" authorities here from a soruce with education behind it, not just foklore from your own vast experience-

From Food Safety and Inspection Service
United States Department of Agriculture
http://www.fsis.usda.gov/OA/pubs/freezing.htm

"Once food is thawed in the refrigerator, it is safe to refreeze it without cooking, although there may be a loss of quality due to the moisture lost through defrosting. After cooking raw foods which were previously frozen, it is safe to freeze the cooked foods. If previously cooked foods are thawed in the refrigerator, you may refreeze the unused portion."

BTW saw some of the FD guys this AM and kudos from all.

BBC

By Chefrev (Chefrev) on Saturday, August 14, 2004 - 05:26 pm: Edit

Pompous?! ME?! Well, opinionated, OH yeah; but pompous? Nah! You did ask for 2nd or 3rd opinions. So please don't get upset if the people you ask don't tell you what you want to hear. That said, please hear me out...

The site you reference has recommendations for refreezing foods ONCE only, and then only if there were still ice crystals within the product.

In rereading your posts, it does sound like the FD meal was served after one freezing and one reheating. I've done that, heck we've all done that, probably. I once worked for an owner whose nickname was "Sell-It-Twice".

I know reusing food isn't the best way to do things because of repeated exposure to possible bacterial growth. It's a crap shoot every time and you always have to weigh the risks vs benefits. I usually err on the side of caution.

However, if I misinterpreted the sequence of events before, I'll admit to being stuck on the original question which asked about refreezing completely thawed, previously frozen BBQ.

The potential problem would have been in refreezing and then reheating the BBQ again. So that's a moot point now, and I'm glad everyone's okay.

By Cheftim (Cheftim) on Saturday, August 14, 2004 - 08:51 pm: Edit

A CIA grad calling a "hard knocks chef" pompous?

The world is going to hell in a hand basket.

By Jonesg (Jonesg) on Saturday, August 14, 2004 - 10:28 pm: Edit

The trouble with strictly following the gvmnt established safety guidlines is the abandonment of common sense.

If its good enough to eat, its good enough do anything with .... IF you know how and use a little common sense.

Without common sense, even the best laid guidlines will fail at some point.

It isn't all this way or all that way either.
That sort of black and white decision making is not based on skill or experience, its based in fear. Those who work that way will likely wash out in the end because working in constant fear is too stressfull.

By Chefmanny (Chefmanny) on Sunday, August 15, 2004 - 09:40 am: Edit

Dan, first of all I doubt the meat was kept a 160F or higher the whole time, (the thermometer on the equipment may have marked 160F, that does not mean the internal temperature of the meat was) pork has to be cooked to 160F and maintained at that temperature. Once the meat drops even one degree below 160F it must be treated like a leftover and re-heated to 165F for at least 15 seconds. The problem is not only the microorganisms but the spores that are left by the microorganisms that "cannot" be cooked out at any temperature!
In addition, food should not be kept hot for longer then 4-5 hours, this just increases the risk of bacterial growth.
That half pan of pulled pork is how much $10-12 at the most???? (I just bought a 12 pound shoulder at the store for $9.00)!!
Is it worth the risk of losing your business and reputation???
Better yet, would you feed it to you pregnant wife???...if you had one????

By Point83702 (Point83702) on Sunday, August 15, 2004 - 12:26 pm: Edit

I never cook pork to 160 unless it is requested well done. I cook poultry and pork to about 140, though I usually don't probe it. When I was at Greystone in April an instructor told me to cook egg yolks in creme anglaise to 130-140, but I always tell my cooks to cook them to 160-170. Sometimes I think we may have been better off without digital thermometers. I've caught newbies trying to probe chicken strips. I worked with a chef (C.I.A. alum, A.C.F. certified) who probed every steak, rack, etc. before he would serve it. As far as Dan's pork goes- It's your decision and you'll be responsible for any consequences. None of us can see it, smell it, taste it, etc. Two of my favorite places to eat, one's a Vietnamese restaurant and the other is a carneceria, have the kind of food handling practices that would give Cheftim a heart attack. Damn good food though.

By Cheftim (Cheftim) on Sunday, August 15, 2004 - 05:19 pm: Edit

Point, I can understand not wanting to over cook a pork loin, tender or some nice chops but if you going for the classic "pork roast" with mashed and gravy it's got to be fork tender and that takes long and slow braising.

Poultry on the other hand, the way it is processed? Do your customers like bloody chicken?

By Chefmanny (Chefmanny) on Sunday, August 15, 2004 - 05:34 pm: Edit

Chris, this is exactly why people get food poisoning many times!
Yes, as Chefs we are taught one thing, and granted I do it myself, I undercook many foods, including pork and beef.
Not all humans are able to digest or excrete the bacteria...hence people get sick!
The guy who used the thermometer in every steak is 100% correct, maybe not to Culinary die hards (including me), I still go by feel!

By Point83702 (Point83702) on Wednesday, August 18, 2004 - 04:47 pm: Edit

Chef Tim- I braise approprate cuts of meat until they are fork tender. I've never stuck a thermometer into a braised piece of meat to temp it. I also don't serve bloody chicken. If I roast a whole chicken to 140+ it will carryover significantly resting. I roast 100# of turkey breast a week for the last 5 years for sandwiches and always pull it at 140. Being a larger piece of meat there is a large carry over. Do you actually leave a turkey breast in the oven until it temps at 160? I wonder what it would temp out after resting at room temp for 15 minutes.
Manny- The guy I was talking about would sometimes probe a steak, I'm talking about 8 and 10 ounce steaks, 3 or 4 time before serving it. Ouch. Great way to help a steak bleed out though. I used to joke that if I removed the battery from his probe he would be sunk. What temperature do you teach your students to cook beef to? 130 for a rare filet? How do they know when to start poking holes in the steak? I always thought judging doneness of meat by touch was standard for cooks, but that's just my experience. By the way, during my apprenticeship my chef taught me to judge the doneness of roasted meats by probing with a thin bladed knife and then touching it to your lip to check doneness. I don't think you'd learn that in school these days.

By Chefmanny (Chefmanny) on Wednesday, August 18, 2004 - 07:24 pm: Edit

Legally, and properly you should stick the thermometer in the steak...period!
Yes, the touch or feel method is used widely but, you can still get people sick by either way, one is just less acurate then the other.
Carryover cooking is definitely a consideration but, not in the scientific and legal world!
Foods have to reach the prescribed temps. for at least 15 seconds as per FDA!
If you do not you open yourself up for legal liability, even though "We" as Chefs do different!!!!

By Point83702 (Point83702) on Wednesday, August 18, 2004 - 08:39 pm: Edit

Manny what are the prescribed temps?
A quick glance at FDA web site said 160 for all beef? Is that right? I sure hope not.

By Chefmanny (Chefmanny) on Thursday, August 19, 2004 - 07:32 am: Edit

No!
Poultry 165F
Ground Beef 155F
Pork, Beef, Veal, Lamb 145F
Fish 145F
Eggs 145F
Vegetable and Fruits 135F
PHF's cooked in microwave 165F, and cannot be stored for re-use after cooking in microwave!
Stuffed Meats 165F
New temp. danger zone since 2003 is from 40F-135F, many inspectors don't know this!!!!!!

The reason you see many different temps is because the FDA is a "guideline" it's not a law, so many other entities institute their own temps. The FDA is a "minimum holding temp. guideline", you can cook things longer or less using your judgement.

By Chefgibz0 (Chefgibz0) on Thursday, August 19, 2004 - 08:21 am: Edit

When did chefs become slaves to prescribed temps, thermometers and the lawyer sitting in the weeds waiting to pounce your ass???? uh?? Does this mean classics such as steak tartar, fois gras turchon and pittsburg steaks are illegal to prepare????? And what about the Sushi place down the way??? Do they have to cook their fish?? How about Hollandaise??......Should we hard scramble the eggs "before" we make the emulision?? A whole roasted turkey should NEVER and I mean NEVER stay in the oven until it reaches 165F are you crazy not even shocking it in the damn freezer would keep it from turning to...to......a crumbly mess of over cooked turkey jerky. Pork tenderloin is best eaten at med to med rare. 122F and let to rest. You know if we as Chefs continue to let the left wing liberals invade every aspect of our lives and continue to press on with their politicaly correct movement pretty soon we will have inspectors in our kitchens 24/7 telling us what to do......or better yet let them put in 24/7 survaleance cameras to record our every move.........then nobody will get sick or have privacy or a good tradtionally cooked meal...... look at the top of the page.....the name George has chosen to honor.......ESCOFFIER...... Do you think he would cook his roast turkey to 165F.......I bet he turning in his grave at the thought........I chose to honor such a name as ESCOFFIER...not let those pablum puking liberals to tell me how to cook!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

By Chefmanny (Chefmanny) on Thursday, August 19, 2004 - 09:04 am: Edit

No, Escoffier did not roast his turkey to 165F???...or maybe he did, who knows???.. but, back in those days you died at 15-16 years of age so eating bad turkey was not foremost in people's mind.

Yes, the lawyers are waiting to pounce on "our" asses!!!!...remember the Jack in the Box incident, the ground beef recall, and many others I don't recall now.


If you have read anything relating to food safety and sanitation you would know that you add either vinegar or lemon juice to "fresh" raw eggs for Hollandaise or you could use pasteurized eggs!By the way they make pasteurized eggs in the shell now!!!!!!

Tha sushi place has no worries as long as they keep the fish below 41F and the final product is not in the food temperature danger zone(41F-135F) more then four hours!
There is something the "lawyers" call "assumption of the risk" which is what you do when you eat something raw and it makes you sick, as long as the establishment too "reasonable" care to keep the food safe, they are good!
When you eat fresh fish, the assumtion of the risk is that there might be fish bones in the fish, this is why you should never say boneless fish filet, because if one slips by you you might be in the sh@t...now if you say semi-bonelss you as@ is covered!!...legally!
It will be up to a jury to decide what "reasonable" is.


By the way Steak Tartare is virtually extinct in most, not all restaurants!!!!

Legal Seafood has placed a testing lab in their kitchen now also to test for mercury and other toxins in fresh fish!!!!....so the inspector in the kitchen 24-7 might be self imposed in some cases!!!!!!

By Chefgibz0 (Chefgibz0) on Thursday, August 19, 2004 - 10:42 am: Edit

Manny......I have not been hiding under a rock for the past five years....I do know about all the law suits, the progress in food safety, handeling procedures, do this not that bullsh@t....I just think all this lawsuit, government is here to protect your every move lets make all food prepackaged "safe" low cal low fat low carb low taste same sh@t you got next door and do not forget to iradiate, cook the hell out of that chicken so it does not make anyone get the sh@ts sort of mentality out there................and B T W.........how in the hell do you Pasturize and egg with out cookin the damn thing?????????????????? If any snall amount of heat is added to an egg.......IT COOKS...........you got some splainin to do Lucy....

By Chefmanny (Chefmanny) on Thursday, August 19, 2004 - 12:21 pm: Edit

I agree with you, I'm just telling you like it is though!!!
That's why I'm getting $300 an hour to do HACCP and Sanitation inventories for food companies!!!!
This is big $$$$ now and nobody is going to turn it loose!!!!!
I'm not sure how they pasteurize the egss, I'm going to check it out!!!!!
Here is one of the articles on it.......

http://www.ift.org/publications/docshop/ft_shop/12-01/12_01_pdfs/12-01-proc.pdf

By Chefmanny (Chefmanny) on Thursday, August 19, 2004 - 12:25 pm: Edit

Here is another........

October 1995


Sunny side up? Yup.
WEST LAFAYETTE, Ind. -- Chocolate chip cookie dough and sunny-side-up eggs may be back on the menu thanks to Purdue University researchers who have developed a new method for pasteurizing eggs in the shell to kill Salmonella enteritidis .
The new, low-temperature, long-time egg pasteurization method can heat an egg yolk to salmonella -killing temperatures without solidifying the white or yolk. It is being patented by Purdue food process engineer Rakesh Singh, food microbiologist Peter Muriana, poultry process specialist William Stadelman and graduate student Huiying Hou.

"Only about one out of every 20,000 eggs may be contaminated with salmonella -- and even the contaminated ones are safe if the eggs are handled properly," Muriana says, "but that put shell eggs back on the USDA hazardous food list in 1991."

Salmonella is a type of bacteria that may cause no more than an upset stomach in a healthy person, but it can be life-threatening for small children, the elderly, pregnant women and anyone with a weak immune system, according to the Food and Drug Administration (FDA). FDA estimates that from 2 million to 4 million cases of salmonellosis occur in the United States annually, and the Centers for Disease Control has recorded more than 120 outbreaks due specifically to Salmonella enteritidis .

Once pasteurized eggs hit the market, however, young and old will be able to eat thick, Texas-style French toast and home-made hollandaise sauce, mayonnaise, ice cream and eggnog from shell eggs without worrying about salmonella . And the process will add only a few cents per dozen to the cost of eggs, according to Stadelman.

If you wonder how you snitched all that cookie dough as a kid without getting sick, it's because the problem is new. Salmonella was found in lots of other foods, but not in raw shell eggs until recently.

"In the 1980s Salmonella enteritidis bacteria adapted in a way that made them able to cause ovarian infection in chickens," Muriana says. "Now it's the number one type of salmonella isolated from egg-related food poisoning outbreaks."

Because Salmonella enteritidis can infect a chicken's ovaries, eggs are infected before they are laid. The bacteria get packaged with the egg yolk when the white and shell form around it.

Producers and grocers take care to handle eggs properly so that salmonella bacteria don't grow in eggs and create a hazard. But they cannot test for the bacteria within an intact egg, so they cannot promise that eggs in grocery stores are absolutely salmonella -free. They also can't control how shoppers handle the eggs after they take them home. And it's at home or in restaurants that most problems occur.

By Chefmanny (Chefmanny) on Thursday, August 19, 2004 - 12:26 pm: Edit

The FDA notes that most incidents of salmonella food poisoning have been traced to situations where the contents of several eggs were mixed, allowed to sit unrefrigerated, then not fully cooked. Refrigerating eggs below 40 F limits Salmonella growth, and fully cooking eggs destroys the bacteria.

When the Purdue team tested its procedure with artificially inoculated eggs, the researchers were able to kill 10 million Salmonella enteritidis bacteria per egg. Bacteria levels very rarely get that high. Most naturally infected eggs contain no more than 100 salmonella bacteria per egg, so the process provides a wide margin of safety.

The pasteurized eggs are just as good for cooking and eating. They act exactly like their unpasteurized counterparts when researchers use them in cakes, cookies or eggnog.

"There is no coagulation, protein loss or loss in functionality of egg components," says Singh.

The process looks good to shell-egg producers.

Currently, egg producers with Salmonella enteritidis -infected flocks cannot sell their eggs in the shell, although they can crack the eggs, pasteurize the contents and sell them as lower-value, liquid eggs. Often producers destroy infected flocks and sanitize the buildings that had housed them, although that doesn't assure that a new flock in the building will be infection-free.

In the future, eggs from infected flocks may be pasteurized and sold whole.

Processors whose pasteurized liquid eggs have a shelf-life of just a couple of weeks are also interested in the Purdue process. They compete with a company in Minnesota that has full rights to a pasteurization process that gives its liquid egg product a 12-week shelf-life and allows it to ship the product cross-country. If other liquid egg processors started with already-pasteurized shell eggs, they could extend their product's shelf-life and also ship their pasteurized liquid eggs to farther markets.

Before any producers will buy into shell-egg pasteurization, however, the researchers must develop a fast, easy and effective commercial version. Several Indiana egg companies already are working with the Purdue researchers to scale up the process for commercial use.

Muriana, Singh and Stadelman doubt that all shell eggs will be pasteurized in the future. More likely, "pasteurized shell eggs" will become an additional, specialty item on grocery store shelves.


Sources: Peter Muriana, (765) 494-8284; Internet, murianap@foodsci.purdue.edu
Rakesh Singh, (765) 494-8262; Internet, singhr@foodsci.purdue.edu
William Stadelman, (765) 494-8286; Internet, stadelma@foodsci.purdue.edu


Writer: Rebecca J. Goetz, (765) 494-0461; Internet, rjg@aes.purdue.edu

By Ladycake (Ladycake) on Friday, August 20, 2004 - 08:42 pm: Edit

re: "Producers and grocers take care to handle eggs properly so that Salmonella bacteria don't grow in eggs and create a hazard."

I have not infrequently seen stacks of eggs sitting in boxes on the floor of a market (not just one) outside the cold case. What's up with that?

Also, in California we have been told that the Salmonella egg problem is primarily an East Coast phenomena. Do any of you know if that is true?

By Loren (Loren) on Sunday, August 22, 2004 - 12:39 pm: Edit

in autralia eggs aren't even refrigerated. not even in the markets. yanks are too paranoid.

By Chefgibz0 (Chefgibz0) on Sunday, August 22, 2004 - 01:15 pm: Edit

Thanx Loren,
That is what I am tring to say. People are getting to "soft" anymore. growing a nation if not a world of whiners. Eggs can hold at room temp for 30 days and not go bad. The problem lies in the handling of these delicate lil packages in the "factory". Do you think the average farmer of yesteryear worried about salmonella as he was taking the egg from the hens a55??? no! And yes Manny I do "agree" with you on the basis of the topic, and on covering your a55 these days, but does it have to be that way?? Not if we do not let it happen. Especially these days, there are bigger fish to fry in societies arena.

By Jonesg (Jonesg) on Sunday, August 22, 2004 - 01:29 pm: Edit

Actually the paranoia is based in reality, the food source is infected from the get go, for all the obsessing over cooking temps the raw ingredients are unfit to cook, but thats all we got.
I suspect, and posted here 5 yrs ago, feeding poultry (meat) by-products is causing this.

Eggs are not refrigerated in France either, because they don't need to be.
Chickens obviously cannot process meat.
So its the unsafe farming practices that sets things going downhill, in the meantime culinary schools pump out grads with thermometers as though thats the answer .
American cooks are skilled enough, its the food source then thats the problem.

By Cheftim (Cheftim) on Sunday, August 22, 2004 - 02:23 pm: Edit

Amen to that. If any other industry sold a product that was defective the government would come down on them but... s**t don,t get me started

By Chefmanny (Chefmanny) on Sunday, August 22, 2004 - 09:36 pm: Edit

Hopefully you will enjoy this right about now........................................


People over 35 should be dead. Here's why .
>According to today's regulators and bureaucrats, those of us
>who were kids in the 40's, 50's, 60's, or even maybe
>the early 70's probably shouldn't have survived.
>
>Our baby cribs were covered with bright colored lead-based
>paint. We had no childproof lids on medicine bottles, doors
>or cabinets, .. and when we rode our bikes, we had no
>helmets. (Not to mention the risks we took hitchhiking.)
>
>As children, we would ride in cars with no seatbelts
>or air bags.
>
>Riding in the back of a pickup truck on a warm day was
>always a special treat!
>
>We drank water from the garden hose and not from a bottle.
>
>We ate cupcakes, bread and butter, and drank soda pop
>with sugar in it, but we were never overweight because
>we were always outside playing.
>
>We shared one soft drink with four friends, from one
>bottle, and no one actually died from this.
>
>We would spend hours building our go-carts out of scraps
>and then rode down the hill, only to find out we forgot
>the brakes. After running into the bushes a few times, we learned to
>solve the problem.
>
>We would leave home in the morning and play all day,
>as long as we were back when the street lights came on.
>No one was able to reach us all day. NO CELL PHONES
>
> We did not have Play stations, Nintendo 64, X-Boxes, no
>video games at all, no 99 channels on cable, video
>tape movies, surround sound, personal cell phones,
>personal computers, or Internet chat rooms.
>
>We had friends! We went outside and found them.
>
>We played dodge ball, and sometimes, the ball would
>really hurt.
>
>We fell out of trees, got cut and broke bones and
>teeth, and there were no lawsuits from these accidents.
>They were accidents. No one was to blame but us..
>
>We had fights and punched each other and got black
>and blue and learned to get over it.
>
>We made up games with sticks and tennis balls and
>ate worms, and although we were told it would happen,
>we did not put out very many eyes, nor did the worms
>live inside us forever.
>
>We rode bikes or walked to a friend's home and knocked
>on the door, or rang the bell or just walked in and
>talked to them!
>
>Little League had tryouts and not everyone made the team.
>
>Those who didn't had to learn to deal with disappointment.
>
>Some students weren't as smart as others, so they
>failed a grade and were held back to repeat the same grade.
>Tests were not adjusted for any reason.
>
>Our actions were our own. Consequences were expected.
>
>The idea of a parent bailing us out if we broke a law
>was unheard of. They actually sided with the law.
>
>This generation has produced some of the best risk-takers
>and problem solvers and inventors, ever.
>
>The past 50 years have been an explosion of
>innovation and new ideas.
>
>We had freedom, failure, success and responsibility,
>and we learned how to deal with it all.

By Poochedm (Poochedm) on Sunday, August 22, 2004 - 10:17 pm: Edit

AMEN BROTHER!

By Chefrev (Chefrev) on Sunday, August 22, 2004 - 11:57 pm: Edit

Good one, Manny!

Look, I'm all for people taking responsibility for their actions, not being so wimpy and all that but that doesn't change the reality that our world now is not the world we grew up in. Water is undrinkable in many areas, and there is food that will make you sick if not properly prepared.

You want to go back to the days of open air markets where fish and meat sat unrefrigerated and bug covered, where open sewers mixed with drinking and bathing water? Be my guest.

Yeah we're less tough than our parents and grandparents, but our labor is not as tough either. We've become soft, as a nation. So the now we deal with weakened immunity, and threats to that weakness. Get over it for cryin out loud, throw bad stuff out, and refrigerate the bleedin eggs!!

By Chef_Mars (Chef_Mars) on Wednesday, December 29, 2004 - 08:45 am: Edit

When I was HACCP trained and certified by Cristal International the regulation was that after 2 hours of holding at the correct temperature, above 63 degrees Centigrade, (monitoring and recording temperatures at least once an hour) hot food was to be thrown out, never cooled-frozen-reheated-served.

For cold food which had to be held below 8 degrees Centigrade and monitored and recorded, after 4 hours it was to be thrown out.

That's what HACCP said to do. How much you threw out would depend on how good you were at estimating the consumption among other variables.

By Andapanda (Andapanda) on Wednesday, December 29, 2004 - 06:49 pm: Edit

I'm not an expert in "HAACP"(actually HACCP--Hazard Analysis and Critical Control Point). Nevertheless, here are some URLs:

http://vm.cfsan.fda.gov/~lrd/haccp.html
http://www.fsis.usda.gov/OA/haccp/imphaccp.htm
http://www.gslabs.com/haccp.html
http://www.swinefile.com/Fdsafelst.htm


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