The Great Hall
I'd love to make this, but... The Great Hall: I'd love to make this, but...
By Adelie (Adelie) on Wednesday, September 21, 2005 - 01:49 am: Edit

My husband talks a lot about the "burned sugar" ice cream his grandmother used to make in rural Missouri. He knows that burned sugar is caramel, but says that this didn't taste like that. It had a distinctive but wonderful burned sugar taste, sort of like the topping on creme brulee. It's not a topping, but the flavor of the ice cream itself.

I've tried to duplicate it but can't. Any suggestions?

By Chefspike (Chefspike) on Thursday, September 22, 2005 - 09:04 pm: Edit

I posted a answer to this and now its gone.
what going on?

By Chefspike (Chefspike) on Friday, September 23, 2005 - 12:02 am: Edit

lets try it again.
look up, "pouring sugar".
should be half water, half sugar.(of any amount)
cook to the temp. for pouring sugar. then cook it a little longer, like 1-2 min's. or until it smells burnt.
pour it out on some foil, let cool and dry.
grind it up.
add it to the yolk mixture, before you cook them.
make the ice cream.
I would use a lot of sugar.
and a drop of vanilla, just to bring the flavor out.
the longer you cook the sugar, the more it gets darker. and more burnt. it will be different colors when you grind it up.
you can use a robo coupe' or a coffee grinder, and grind small amounts at a time.
or, you can smash it up with a rollin pin like grandma.
to clean the pot that the sugar was cooked in, fill with water and put back on the stove to a med boil, wash the sides down with a pastry brush, as the water level goes down. if you have to do it a couple of times, all the sugar will disappear, wash .

By Chefspike (Chefspike) on Friday, September 23, 2005 - 12:02 am: Edit

I see it up there this time.
i see it.

By Adelie (Adelie) on Friday, September 23, 2005 - 12:47 am: Edit

Thanks so much, Spike - I'll try it as soon as possible and let you know how it turns out.

I wonder what would happen if you just made the ice cream without any flavorings, ground up the burned sugar like praline, and just mixed it in halfway through the freezing process? Grandma's rolling pin method would probably make varying size bits, which might make for an interesting texture in the ice cream.

I'm getting hungry.

By Cheftim (Cheftim) on Friday, September 23, 2005 - 05:14 pm: Edit

At a temp of 350 the sugar will have a strong caramelized flavor.
A couple of tricks to help get the sugar to the camel stage without re-crystalizing.

Use a third by weight light karo syrup with your table sugar.

Use two parts sugar 1/2 part water and 1/2 part table vinegar to boil you sugar.

Instead of cooling and grinding why not pour the caramelized sugar right into you ice cream mix.

By Adelie (Adelie) on Friday, September 23, 2005 - 05:42 pm: Edit

OK - let me be sure I understand what you're saying, Tim.

Make a sugar mixture of, say, 1/3 c. Karo and 2/3 c. sugar, for one cup total.

Add to that 1/2 c. water and 1/2 c. (white?) vinegar and boil.

Is that right?

What is "table" vinegar? Is it white vinegar? (I use it on my windows but have never used it for cooking.) If not, what is it, and wouldn't it flavor the finished product?

I was thinking of grinding the hardened caramel and adding it for a bit of crunch texture in the finished ice cream. Provided, of course, that it wouldn't dissolve in the process.

By Chefjoannam (Chefjoannam) on Friday, September 23, 2005 - 05:46 pm: Edit

if you want to prevent crystals, any acid will invert your sugar

lemon juice
cream of tartar (tartaric acid)

heck, I suppose battery acid would also work, LOL

By Chefspike (Chefspike) on Friday, September 23, 2005 - 08:10 pm: Edit

"Use a third by weight light karo syrup with your table sugar."......................
......This will cause the sugar, after its cooked and dried( the first time ) to become liquid, if you don't have proper storage.

"Use two parts sugar 1/2 part water and 1/2 part table vinegar to boil you sugar."........................
........Why would you need this for ice cream ?

Cream of tartar......this also is unnessary for the application she is using it for.
crystals----because this sugar is going into ice cream, thats why I sugested that she add it to the yolks before she cooks the mix.
Not just for flavor, but also, the small amount of sugar wasted by crystals is small, I don't think thats something she needs to worry about.
She could wash down the sides of the pot while the sugar is cooking, but why even do that?

By Chefspike (Chefspike) on Friday, September 23, 2005 - 08:11 pm: Edit

I see it again.

By Cheftim (Cheftim) on Saturday, September 24, 2005 - 06:06 pm: Edit

Any caramelized sugar is going to absorb water if not stored properly, i.e. in an air tight container with a drying agent of some kind.

Adding karo syrup,adding glucose) or inverting the sugar, (breaking the sucrose chain into glucose and fructose, thanks Joanna), helps prevent the super saturated syrup from crystalizing during the cooking. I have had problems when using straight table sugar turning to a solid lump because a stray crystal got in or maybe the sugar had a minute amount of flour in it.

Adelie,I'm saying table vinegar meaning the red wine vinegar or white vinegar you may have in your kitchen. It won't effect the taste of the caramel.

By Adelie (Adelie) on Saturday, September 24, 2005 - 09:55 pm: Edit

Whew - I'm reading the back-and-forth between you chefs and realizing how far I am from knowing anything at all about cooking. You are speaking a language I don't speak, which is understandable on your own website that I crashed. But I flunked chemistry in HS - despite the fact that my father was a chemist, which didn't make me too popular at home - so know nothing about inverting sugar, or sucrose chains. (But I do remember that sucrose is c6H12O6, so all isn't lost!) Time to hit the books.

So I'll try Tim's suggestions and let you know how it turns out. My husband is leaving at the crack of dawn to go back to St. Louis for a funeral, so maybe I'll try it while he's gone and surprise him when he returns.

By Jonesg (Jonesg) on Monday, November 14, 2005 - 05:27 pm: Edit

"Instead of cooling and grinding why not pour the caramelized sugar right into you ice cream mix."

hehehe, Tim you obviously have not tried doing that.

By Chefspike (Chefspike) on Tuesday, November 15, 2005 - 12:47 am: Edit

hot sugar added to cold ice cream.
you wouldn't have any teeth left.

By Cheftim (Cheftim) on Tuesday, November 15, 2005 - 11:34 am: Edit

There is no way to add hot caramelized sugar to the mix?

I know I'm just a chef and have little or no pastry experience beyond the two years of owning my own pastry shop and doing most of the pastries for the restaurants and hotels I've execed but even I can think of at least two ways to do it.

Hell, I've made caramel english custard cream. Is that much different?

By Chefspike (Chefspike) on Wednesday, November 16, 2005 - 12:30 am: Edit

I guess Tim has done that.

By Chef_Blair (Chef_Blair) on Sunday, November 20, 2005 - 12:00 am: Edit

We used to take amber carmelized sugar and at the last minute toss in hot toasted almonds, stir it just a bit. Pour that out onto a marble slab to cool. Then get grandmas rolling pin and pulverize it, fold it into the icecream at the last minute when it's done freezing. mmm... that was good. Seems like it was called praline nouget.

By Adelie (Adelie) on Sunday, November 20, 2005 - 08:28 pm: Edit

If I understand right, praline is a confection made of nuts in a crystalline sugar matrix. But nougat is a chewy texture. So I wonder how you combine them.

By Chenejaunechef (Chenejaunechef) on Sunday, November 20, 2005 - 11:34 pm: Edit

why not just get the sugar to hardball(not sure, roughly 350) then make little sugar/carmel balls and put that into the ice cream while spinning it?

By Adelie (Adelie) on Monday, November 21, 2005 - 01:29 pm: Edit

Sounds good to me - in fact, it ALL sounds good to me!

By Chefspike (Chefspike) on Sunday, November 27, 2005 - 07:34 am: Edit

sugar to hardball, and it just happens to turn to carmel...??????
thats not going to work.
you would not even be able to eat something like that, what the hell are you thinking?

By Pastrycrew (Pastrycrew) on Tuesday, December 06, 2005 - 05:43 am: Edit

You probably have this thing nailed down, but I'd try:

Caramelized Vanilla Ice Cream
Granulated Sugar 1 # 8 ounce 680 gr
European Butter 4 ½ ounce 128 gr
Salt Small pinch Small pinch
Cream 1 # 2 ounce 510 gr
Caramelize sugar, dry. Stir in butter and salt off the fire. Add cream return to the fire to dissolve the caramel. Let rest overnight.

Either take some pre-made vanilla ice cream and swirl this in or layer it with fresh made vanilla ice cream out of the freezer. Ice Cream/Caramel etc etc. When you scoop it will be swirled. * you can intensify the sugar taste by cooking the sugar to various degrees. some Haagen Daaz Dulce de Leche Ice Cream and see if that hits the spot. It's very similiar to the above.


By Chenejaunechef (Chenejaunechef) on Tuesday, December 06, 2005 - 10:14 pm: Edit

"sugar to hardball, and it just happens to turn to carmel...??????
thats not going to work.
you would not even be able to eat something like that, what the hell are you thinking?"

i thought she meant like "burnt sugar" like she said in the first post, and yes its edible...ive made/eaten it before its similar to things jacques torres makes

By Chefmanny (Chefmanny) on Wednesday, December 07, 2005 - 05:47 am: Edit

Oh God!?!?!?!?!?

By Andapanda (Andapanda) on Wednesday, December 07, 2005 - 05:31 pm: Edit

I hope that you find these hyperlinks helpful--everything you ever wanted to know about sugar and more!:
Invert Sugar
Types of sugar
Liquid Sugars
Sugars and Sweeteners
Definition of Invert Sugar
Inverted Sugar Syrup
simple definition of Invert Sugar
Simple Syrup
Sugar in Food
Sugar Factory Definitions
Sugar chemistry
Invert Sugar chemistry
Sugar companies
The Sweet Facts of Confection Creation
Sugar Confectionary
Sugar in baking
Sugar labeling
Inverted Sugar in food processing
Frozen Panna Cotta(with invert sugar) recipe
Good luck with your dessert for your husband.

By Adelie (Adelie) on Wednesday, December 07, 2005 - 06:00 pm: Edit

Wow - there's a lot more to sugar than I thought! Thanks for the information and links. I'm going to try this over the holidays, probably with store-bought ice cream, since I'm not sure if our ice-cream maker survived our move last year.

By Andapanda (Andapanda) on Wednesday, December 07, 2005 - 08:58 pm: Edit

Pastrycrew is correct about Häagen-Dazs' dulce de leche ice cream, but they also have a crème brulée ice cream as well!
Baskin Robbins also has a crème brulée ice cream.
The following brands also have Dulce de leche ice creams:
Breyer's, Dreyer's(west of the Rocky Mountains), Edy's(east of the Rocky mountains).

By Kinglear (Kinglear) on Thursday, December 08, 2005 - 07:51 am: Edit

Speaking of all these different types of sugar-
Does anyone know where I could obtain what is called
"doughnut sugar"?
It's a type of confectioners' sugar used in coating doughnuts that does not absorb moisture from the air.
I need to find a way to dust baked items with sugar without it eventually melting away.

By Chefgibz0 (Chefgibz0) on Thursday, December 08, 2005 - 09:49 am: Edit

KingLear...I think King Arthur Flour sells that kind of sugar.

By Foodpump (Foodpump) on Thursday, December 08, 2005 - 10:04 am: Edit

Your pastry supplier will have "Snow powder" or "no-melt icing sugar", but probably in bulk packaging. It is icing sugar, more or less, mixed with cornstarch and a vegetable fat. You can dust desserts with it and refrigerate them for days without the sugar melting.

By Andapanda (Andapanda) on Thursday, December 08, 2005 - 03:12 pm: Edit

Donut Sugar:
Cake Donut Technical help
FAQ - Doughnuts
Donut Sugar question
Donut Sugar and Glaze Formulations
Snow Cap DCA White Donut Sugar(No Melt Icing Sugar)
Patisfrance Sucraneige

How Sugar is Made

By Kinglear (Kinglear) on Saturday, December 10, 2005 - 08:27 am: Edit

Thank you for the interesting links Adelie
I certainly do not need 40 kg of the stuff-only a pound or two to keep around for shoots where I need a dusting of sugar on a bakery item.
I'll check out King Arthur

By Andapanda (Andapanda) on Saturday, December 10, 2005 - 10:58 am: Edit

Adelie did not send you those links, I did. That link under her name was for her to check out. (I should have posted a separate post for her to avoid confusion.)
King Arthur Flour does not have Donut Sugar. They have Baker's Special Sanding Sugar(which some bakers use for sugaring donuts, but that dissolves, or inverts, as opposed to the term you used, 'melting'), and they have Coarse Sugar which can be sprinkled(vis-a-vis 'dusting' as you had mentioned) atop baked goods because it is resistant to inversion.

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