Shortdough base spread with a thin layer of apricot or raspberry jam, topped with an almond filling and baked. At a bakery where I used to work at, this base was called mazarin when it was unfinished, and it's name changed to tosca or frangipane depending on how it was finished. Would anyone please care to shed some light on this?
Also, what is the best way to get an even crumb when the mazarin is baked? Sometimes I get irregular-sized air pockets which don't look clean and neat when the pastries are cut. Thanks.

By jeee2 on Friday, August 13, 1999 - 12:06 am: Edit

Creme frangipane usually has pastry cream mixed in but I also use it straight.
Almond paste
butter
eggs and flour.

Irregular air pockets sounds like the dough underneath is pushing up, steam is getting trapped under the shortdough, maybe you didn't dock or prick the dough before filling.?
I think so.

Regards, Gerard

By Morgane on Friday, August 13, 1999 - 11:50 am: Edit

A mazarin is a cake made with 2 dacquoises with a layer of a praline mousse in between.

A creme frangipane is made with milk, sugar, flour, eggs and butter. To this mixture you add powdered almonds and if desired a bit of almond extract, pure of course.

The name fragipane comes from the surname of a italian parfume maker who came to Paris in the XVII century.


Morgane

By the sugar guy on Friday, August 13, 1999 - 04:28 pm: Edit

frangipan and mazarin are basicly the same thing , differant name . sometimes differant proportions of ingrediants.almond TPT(same amount powder sugar and almond flour)starch eggs and butter. sometime ,almond paste is used , but i think that almond
TPT gives a better almond texture and flavor . i tend not to use almond extracts in anythink (personaly i dont care much for the bitter almond flavor nor have i seen it beeing used any where in france)but its a matter of taste. also , i would like to point out that some of the big issues in the pastry world is what are the names and where they came from . for some items it is simply a name of some chef or just folklor , or tradition at a specific area. any way , dont worry too much about names and the origins .

By d. on Friday, August 13, 1999 - 11:38 pm: Edit

Thanks guys. Yeah, Gerard, I didn't dock the dough, so when I turned the baked sheet upside down, there were uneven brown patches. Is it better to par-bake the base first? I actually have tried it but the problem is that sometimes the shortdough separates from the almond filling when cut.

By W.DeBord on Saturday, August 14, 1999 - 01:11 am: Edit

O.K. who is correct? Morgane or the sugar guy? I always thought frangipane involved fresh ground almonds.Didn't know anyone used almond paste.I guess I'm making it wrong if my almonds aren't as super fine like a flour or paste?

Sugar guy do you like emalsion (boy I can't spell) flavorings? Some of them seem really nice to me.

By Morgane on Saturday, August 14, 1999 - 12:39 pm: Edit

Sugarguy,


How can you say a cake and a cream are the same thing??


Morgane

By the sugar guy on Saturday, August 14, 1999 - 08:41 pm: Edit

o yeh , about the almond thing .
the most common ingrediant in france that is beeing use when a recipe calls for almonds is :
almonds . usualy as TPT (tant pour tant)that is equal portions of anything , in this case almonds and powder sugar.in the US as well as in germany , austria , hungaria , viena , etc, almond paste is often used instead the almond+sugar TPT that is so popular in france. my personal opinion in this matter is , that fresh ground almonds are the better choice (flavor and texture is more like almonds to me than almond paste)

By the sugar guy on Saturday, August 14, 1999 - 08:50 pm: Edit

some thing went wrong . my last message got lost so i will repeat it for morgane.
i didnt say that a cream and a cake are thye same thing , i am saying that mazarin and frangipan are the same thing . so no you understand that i mean that they are both creams .and to the best of my knowledge they are the same thing , differant origin. as it happens to a lot of recipies in the culinary world, some chefs give their creations names that sometimes confuse others. i just took some time to search my library and found in bo`s book :the professional pastry chef ,a referance to
this subject and he seems to suport my thoery (page 1088) , so go figure . i dont know who is right here , all i know is that mazarin is frangipan.

By the sugar guy on Saturday, August 14, 1999 - 08:51 pm: Edit

some thing went wrong . my last message got lost so i will repeat it for morgane.
i didnt say that a cream and a cake are the same thing , i am saying that mazarin and frangipan are the same thing . so now you understand that i mean that they are both creams .and to the best of my knowledge they are the same thing , differant origin. as it happens to a lot of recipies in the culinary world, some chefs give their creations names that sometimes confuse others. i just took some time to search my library and found in bo`s book :the professional pastry chef ,a referance to
this subject and he seems to suport my thoery (page 1088) , so go figure . i dont know who is right here , all i know is that mazarin is frangipan.

By Morgane on Sunday, August 15, 1999 - 12:34 pm: Edit

I think you are confusing mazarin with marzipan. Still they wouldn't be the same. Fragipan would still be a cream and marzipan a paste. Granted they are both made with almonds but that is where the similarity stop. They are both use for different things and you can not substitute once for the other.


"the most common ingrediant in france that is beeing use when a recipe calls for almonds is :
almonds"

That would be highly logical don't you think?


Morgane

By the sugar guy on Sunday, August 15, 1999 - 05:05 pm: Edit

sorry wrong again,
MARZIPAN IS MARZIPAN and M-A-Z-A-R-I-N IS mazarin.
as far as i know frangipan and mazarin(not marzipan ) are the same thing .some times in different ingrediants ratios but still ,to the best of my knowledge it is the same.here is my recipe for frangipan:
1 kg. almond flour
1 kg. powder sugar(10x)
1 kg. butter
500 gr. eggs
200 gr. corn starch
180 dark rhum(optional)
mix all(except thye rhum) in food prossesor.this is the basic almond cream. to that you add 50% pastry cream(1 part pastry cream 2 parts almond cream=frangipan cream) and mix both well ,then finish with the rhum.
is you use almond paste you get a denser heavier and thicker cream that i think is inferior to using fresh ground almonds. also i dont grind them very fine , i leave tiny pieces so you can feel its not marzipan or almond paste.
in france they use fresh almonds ,as oposed to other europeans that will use mostly almond paste or marzipan ,like the germans for example.

By the sugar guy on Sunday, August 15, 1999 - 05:47 pm: Edit

hey check this out!
i just found another referance to MAZARIN in
LAROUSSE GASTRONOMIQUE guide , and they say that mazarin is a kind of a genoise cut that is shaped like a cone , covered with PINK fondunt and then inserted back to the genoise form with candied fruits and a little syrop and apricot jam.
what the heck is that? do you see what i mean by saying that name origins are so vage ? no one knows for sure where the names come from and what they describe.evry body heard some one say a name somehow , sometime ,somewhere , and things get confused and mixed up .

By d. on Sunday, August 15, 1999 - 06:02 pm: Edit

I use almond paste in my recipe. Never have tried using almond flour. If my recipe calls for 1 # almond paste, can I sub 8 oz. almond flour and 8 oz. 10x sugar? Do I omit the additional sugar in the recipe? I'm interested in comparing the difference in texture. Another interesting tidbit of info: I've played around mixing frangipane with different techniques. The usual way of creaming the almond paste and sugar and butter, yielding a dense and somewhat heavy cake. Then I tried creaming the almond paste with the eggs, folding in the flour and then the melted butter(sort of like a genoise), and it came out much lighter but crumblier when cut.

By the sugar guy on Sunday, August 15, 1999 - 06:20 pm: Edit

you can use the almond+sugar mixture instead of the almond paste in the same proportion(i dont realy know the proportions in your recipe ).as far as mixing ,try the food prosessor . it is fast , efective and give a great results:suagr+almond+starch ,than butter ,then eggs and extracts.if you use a mixer , creaming the almond paste with the eggs (one at a time) will produce a better result cause the almond paste will be nice and smooth , no lumps , more homogenic .over all ,i think that using almonds is cheaper and better than using almond paste.

By jeee2 on Sunday, August 15, 1999 - 07:48 pm: Edit

Sugar guy,

>>i think that using almonds is cheaper >>

Now you're talking, almond paste is getting to be a bit much.

Regards, Gerard

By jeee2 on Sunday, August 15, 1999 - 07:54 pm: Edit

D,

No you can't parbake the shell, if you dock the shell you won't have any more problems.

I used to make something like that yrs ago, pastry shell, docked, some apricot jam, frangipane and decorate the top with almond paste that has been softened with egg whites in a mixer. Mix with paddle to a firm cream so you can use a bag with star tube, no lumps!.
After its baked glaze with apricot glaze and some apricot jam in a bag. Dunno what it was called but it looks neat.

Regards, Gerard

By Morgane on Monday, August 16, 1999 - 11:19 am: Edit

I know what marzipan and mazarin are. I gave the definition of mazarin and fragipane. The description of the mazarin you gave is the one made in the XIX century. These day a mazarin is what I earlier said it was. Before I make a affirmation on whaty a cake or anything else is I always check to make sure I am correct. This will be my last post on this subject it is growing to be tiresome.


Morgane

By t.s.g. on Monday, August 16, 1999 - 05:59 pm: Edit

how do you know its from the 19 century?what if it is ? .plus where did you get your information from ? i am in this business for 17 years now and heared 200 different names to praline cakes with dacquoises layers. i never heard any one call it mazarin, so did`nt certified master pastry chef bo friberg the acclaimed teacher from the CIA .also the "larousse" does not support your theory , so why dont you share with every body where you got this idea from?what ... its like a big seacret or something...?

By W.DeBord on Monday, August 16, 1999 - 10:08 pm: Edit

I'm beginning to see this site as a forum were we all have to prove we the right one. Are we sharing thoughts and opening our minds or showing each other how closed our minds are, and will stay? I'm not referring to this subject only.
I guess I find it more interesting when many people talk on the subject at hand. Can we not get into chest pounding like apes? Or do you all find this more fun?
I'm a drip, I find p.b.s. far more interesting than Jerry Springer.

By jeee2 on Tuesday, August 17, 1999 - 03:20 am: Edit

Sugar guy,

I wouldn't put too much faith in Bo Friberg, his book is a good work but and very complete but I've found it unreliable , I don't trust it.

Cheers, Gerard

By Morgane on Tuesday, August 17, 1999 - 11:09 am: Edit

No need to be so agressive this is just a discussion on a cake not on the meaning of life.

As stated I always check my information BEFORE so I know what I share will be exact. I found my information in The Larousse Gastronomique, the French version since I am French. I did check in the new english version yesterday and it says the same thing so you couldn't have missed it. As for the date of the older definition of the mazarin I checked with a friend who specialised in food history.


Now enough with this I do not care for the tone of this discussion if you can't remain civil or accept that other can be right I am not interested in participating.


Morgane

By Matt (Matt) on Tuesday, August 17, 1999 - 04:34 pm: Edit

Hello Gerard,

I'm 2 for 1 with Bo. 2 good recipies one that didn't workout. Simple stuff....Muffins and cookies. Don't like his pie crust, found another.

I use the book when I need something and I have time to test it. Again the simple stuff. When I need help with tarts and the little french stuff I allowed to do, The Frech Pastry Series has been my best friend.

Matt

By Matt (Matt) on Tuesday, August 17, 1999 - 04:34 pm: Edit

Hello Gerard,

I'm 2 for 1 with Bo. 2 good recipies one that didn't workout. Simple stuff....Muffins and cookies. Don't like his pie crust, found another.

I use the book when I need something and I have time to test it. Again the simple stuff. When I need help with tarts and the little french stuff I allowed to do, The Frech Pastry Series has been my best friend.

Matt


Matt