I keep running into people who are paranoid about getting salmonella from raw eggs. I know the FDA requires eggs be cooked to 140F, but it is impossible to do that and not cook the whites at 141-144F. Also, the literature I've read says that only 2-3 in 10,000 fresh eggs contain salmonella, and even those that do have such a small amount that only immunocompromised people are in danger.

At school we use pasteurized whites and yolks in mousses and other uncooked products. Of course, food costs aren't an issue with lots of students paying huge amounts of money.

How do you professionals handle this concern?

By jeee2 on Monday, August 23, 1999 - 08:40 pm: Edit

Mike,

>>How do you professionals handle this concern? >

Ignore it, its a non issue.
In larger institutions where they hire klutzes to handle the product you don't know what might happen,( I always used froz egg products for convenience as much as anything) but I did notice they didn't have much common sense so the pasteurization was insurance.
Worry about listeria, not salmonella.

Regards, Gerard

By Mike Henders (Mikeh) on Monday, August 23, 1999 - 08:53 pm: Edit

Gerard,

Why do we worry about listeria in the bakeshop? The dairy products are all pasteurized and we don't do anything with processed meats.

Cheers,
Mike

By makubo on Monday, August 23, 1999 - 09:06 pm: Edit

Hold there just a second,
I think to declare it a nonissue is a bit premature, for a seasoned veteran that knows his way around the pitfalls of our profession perhaps, but not to a rookie.
I have found that the knowledge of having your procedures include pasteurisation give myself, and the people that would ultimately foot the bill, in case something goes wrong, a better nights sleep. To elaborate, a good friend of mine, excellent pastry chef with over 20 years of experience in the field, had his career with a major international hotelchain terminated because of the repercussions( financial and reputation) that came with a case of foodpoisoning.
Tira mi-su the name, salmonella the game
So, keep on cooking

By jeee2 on Monday, August 23, 1999 - 09:09 pm: Edit

Mike,
From the CDC :
>>L. monocytogenes has been associated with such foods as raw milk, supposedly pasteurized fluid milk, cheeses (particularly soft-ripened varieties), ice cream, raw vegetables, fermented raw-meat sausages, raw and cooked poultry, raw meats (all types), and raw and smoke fish. Its ability to grow at temperatures as low as 3oC
permits multiplication in refrigerated foods. >>

If you make ham croissants, quiche , gougeres, or any number of typical pastry shop items it can happen, I'll worry about when it does but it makes salmonella look like the common cold and survives where salmonella can't(and thrives).

Regards, Gerard

By jeee2 on Tuesday, August 24, 1999 - 09:20 am: Edit

Makubo,

In a hotel I would use frozen egg products , I've worked in one or two and the level of competence was shockingingly bad. Besides the volume dictated the need for cartons of yolks.
In a small place such as mine its not a problem, not as much as the schools brainwash the students it supposedly is.
Your freind was a victim, hotels are like that sometimes, they can be very political.
The smaller the minds, the sharper the elbows.

Cheers, Gerard

By makubo on Tuesday, August 24, 1999 - 06:51 pm: Edit

It took place in Japan, sterile as it is otherwise, he got the shaft.
Good saying about the elbows though, gotta remember that one.

By W.DeBord on Wednesday, August 25, 1999 - 09:14 am: Edit

O.K. I'm not school smart and I haven't taken any classes on sanitation.I'm beginning to think I'd better! Gerard would you explain more about listeria please?

The guys in the kitchen where I work think I'm nuts. We share some common equipment and it freaks me out how lax they are in cleaning through-out the day.They borrow my plastic wrap with meat soaked hands and return it to me with out a thought.So I can wrap my already baked items.Would this weird you out too?

I never use cracked eggs in items that don't get baked.But sometimes I use eggs I've had at room temp. the whole day.Think I'm safe?

By Mike Henders (Mikeh) on Wednesday, August 25, 1999 - 09:26 am: Edit

You're safe with the eggs. The first thing we do in the morning is pull all of our butter and eggs out, or we'll pull them out the night before if we need to get an early start the next day. Of course, these eggs all go in baked goods. If I were making mayonnaise or something I would use eggs straight out of the refrigerator and coddle them for a minute.

Your definitely not safe with the plastic wrap thing. First, there is a food-borne illness concern -- cross-contamination is one of the biggest causes of food-borne illness. Second, there is a concern with getting savory flavours in your pastries. Just the other day a friend made fruit tarts with something improperly washed from the garde manger kitchen. We knew this because his tarts had accents of garlic! Very unappetizing. I always smell my pots and bowls to make sure there is nothing lingering.

Cheers,
Mike

By Mike Henders (Mikeh) on Wednesday, August 25, 1999 - 09:26 am: Edit

You're safe with the eggs. The first thing we do in the morning is pull all of our butter and eggs out, or we'll pull them out the night before if we need to get an early start the next day. Of course, these eggs all go in baked goods. If I were making mayonnaise or something I would use eggs straight out of the refrigerator and coddle them for a minute.

Your definitely not safe with the plastic wrap thing. First, there is a food-borne illness concern -- cross-contamination is one of the biggest causes of food-borne illness. Second, there is a concern with getting savory flavours in your pastries. Just the other day a friend made fruit tarts with something improperly washed from the garde manger kitchen. We knew this because his tarts had accents of garlic! Very unappetizing. I always smell my pots and bowls to make sure there is nothing lingering.

Cheers,
Mike

By jeee2 on Wednesday, August 25, 1999 - 09:43 am: Edit

Mike and W.DeBord,

ditto on cross contamination, someone who is in a bad habit of wiping their hands on a rag instead of washing after handling chicken etc can do a number on a pastry item. Watch all those TV "chefs" and see how unsanitary they are.

I rarely ever refrigerate eggs,never have, never will, no room and little need. Occasionally at certain times of the yr we get a lot of rotten ones but they are delivered rotten.

For listeriosis see the first POST in the great hall by Hans,follow the link to the CDC articles. its raaather serious stuff, hard to kill and breeds at very cold temperatures.
It makes salmonella look like the sugar plum fairey. cheers...

By jeee2 on Wednesday, August 25, 1999 - 09:48 am: Edit

Makubo,

>>I think to declare it a nonissue is a bit premature, for a seasoned veteran that
knows his way around the pitfalls of our profession perhaps, but not to a rookie>>

The choices are thus, do we expect the rookie to work up to our level of competence or do we dumb down the process to their level.
The laws are being set-up to dumb the process down, no-one in the profession is cooperating though except the institutional cooks, and culinary grads who haven't finished training yet.
This is the result of the poultry lobby paying congress to put the onus on us, its their problem not ours. They solved it in France.

Regards, Gerard

By Morgane on Wednesday, August 25, 1999 - 10:48 am: Edit

Scary stuff! Goes to show you can never be too careful in the kitchen. Just one more thing to worry about. Isn't it sad to think less and less things are safe.


Morgane

By makubo on Wednesday, August 25, 1999 - 03:19 pm: Edit

Gerard,
Excellent observation on the TV chefs, the next booksigning one of the plonkers shows up for, he's fair game:
"Excuse me chef, but how do you reconcile your constant failure to wash hands while handling different food groups on Television with a professionals desire to train & educate your viewers about our beautiful craft"
Just imagine...

By W.DeBord on Wednesday, August 25, 1999 - 08:38 pm: Edit

On this subject the health inspector dropped by work today. Toward the end of his inspection he asked a couple of us if we wouldn't mind taking a quick quiz. What do you say to the guy to not get him pissed off? Sure.
It was ten questions, each one had 4 answers to choose from. Anyway we asked him what was this about. He said he didn't really know yet.
After he left we started laughing about it and talking. It's like were reaching the point where their really stretching it to find anything to put down on their inspection. So maybe the new angle is giving pop quizs'? Who knows?

By jeee2 on Wednesday, August 25, 1999 - 10:31 pm: Edit

W,

I think I'd answer them all wrong just because.

Cheers, Gerard

By W.DeBord on Thursday, August 26, 1999 - 07:21 am: Edit

Just because you want to have a longer chat with the guy? He "graded" them and went over the one I got wrong. HA!!!!!
Hey wait, maybe if we bog the department down at each stop they'll get frustrated. After all those types don't work over time do they?

By jeee2 on Thursday, August 26, 1999 - 10:20 am: Edit

You forget, he asked if you minded, I'd answer all of them wrong then go on lunch or dissapear.
Heck I tell them not to do their paperwork on my tables, so then they have to go sit in their car.
If you think I'm bad you shoulda seen my partner, she'd follow them during inspection and be yelling at them, they got really nervous of writing us up because then she'd demand a hearing with the commisioner .
Thats why I tell people to get the code and study it carefully so you know if they are blowing smoke or its a real violation, we caught them out a few times. I had one instector threaten me over the phone, I called the commisioner and the inspector showed up 10 mins later apologizing, we became friendly after that. I think its very important to know the code, not the HACCP idiot code, the local health codes. HCAAP tries to supplant common sense in too many instances but the health code are the rules of law. Make em work for you.

Cheers, Gerard