The New Bakers Dozen

The The Bakers Dozen: FOOD SAFETY
By Panini (Panini) on Saturday, April 08, 2000 - 04:56 pm: Edit

As I see another post up here for I want to start a business. Just what does every out there know about food safety.
Do all of you in a supervisary position have to take courses like sani safe,State and local classes, tests etc.
Does your state adopt FDA regulations?
Does your state require a certified food handler on the premisis at all times?
Have any of you looked at the new 2000 regulations from FDA?
Do all of you realize that if your equipment is not 41 F.compliant. You will only be granfathered for 5 yrs?
Do all of you know the new temps?
Do you know we are only allowed to use pasturized eggs.
I start here to see if I can get the ball rolling. I personally think this is a very important part of our industry. I also think it would be good to give those workinmg out of their homes some insite, before they start making alot of people sick.

By d. on Saturday, April 08, 2000 - 05:52 pm: Edit

Panini, I'm in LA and we do have to have a certified food handler on site at all times. I did take the ServSafe course, but I am not up to date on the new 2000 rules. What are the new temps? And about pasteurized eggs, are you talking about eggs in their shells or out?
On my side(pastry)of the kitchen I have 1 assistant, so I have clearly informed him about keeping cold things cold, temp control of potentially hazardous food, hygiene, etc. Is there a website with all this info.?

By d. on Saturday, April 08, 2000 - 05:59 pm: Edit

In L.A. county all food service establishments get a grade of A,B, or C , with A being the highest(meaning your a clean establishmnet abiding by food safety regulations). This definitely has affected where people go to eat, made the public more aware of food safety when dining out and wisened up food establishments to cleanliness and food handling issues. I myself can't eat in any restaurant lower than an A.

By Mikeh (Mikeh) on Saturday, April 08, 2000 - 06:08 pm: Edit

Here are two official sites, both run by the FDA's Center for Food Safety and Applied Nutrition (CFSAN).

Umbrella site:
My favorite:

By Mikeh (Mikeh) on Saturday, April 08, 2000 - 06:11 pm: Edit


Is there any requirement to post the results of the health departments inspection publicly?

By jeee2 on Saturday, April 08, 2000 - 10:44 pm: Edit

Its just common sense, following FDA and state regs never stops food poisoning because in the real world people forget, humans make mistakes.
I doubt its possible to follow regs 100% unless you become a stainless steel paradise like McDonalds, theres always something that has to be caught in time. I wouldn't pay much attention to health dept ratings. HEalth inspections are public information, posting them public is a bit overbearing, vindictive and antibusiness.
But we're talking

By Panini (Panini) on Saturday, April 08, 2000 - 10:52 pm: Edit

All inspection reports are available in my state but not published. Inspection reports are very misleading and I for one am opposed to publishing them, for instance, a restaurant in Oklahoma was cited for 8 critical violations.They fell to the bottom of one list on TV. The inspector could not find any violations in the restaurant except the cold plate in the ice bins had a copper drain pipe. 8 ice bins, 8 violations.

eggs out of the shell, buckets of wholke eggs,bags,sugared egg yolks things like that.
I don't have the temps in front of me but I know if you cook a couple of eggs its 145f for fifteen seconds and if you cook a large batch it 155f.
poultry 165f for 15. pork,meats 155 for 15.
All fish served raw will have to be previously frozen. Whats that do to the sushi places?

Date marking,Totally opposite from what I do now, how about you?
The new code is if your holding anything 24 hrs. or more at 41f. you date the product 7 days or less from the time you prepared it. I always use the production day, if the inspector were to come in today I would be throwing out most of my product because it would look outdated to him or her.
Mikeh, I believe its up to each state to enforce posting scores, actually I believe its up to each if they even want to adhere to the new regulations.Thank you for the websites I will absolutley visit them.
I'm very glad to see that things are pretty strict around the country. I hope some of those working in not so safe conditions will visit those websites or here for some insite.
bake safe, cook those key lime pies.

By Panini (Panini) on Saturday, April 08, 2000 - 11:07 pm: Edit

I absolutely dissagree about it being common sense. If you don't know about basic micro biology you can make alot of people sick. People usually think common sense is what they grew up with in the home. Most food borne illness is in residences. You may have knowlege of food safety but that certainly does not mean your employees do.
Bacteria,virus, and parasites can be deadly not to mention make people very sick. There are alot of us running around with low ammune systems do to to other health reasons and its not fair if some jerk in a restaurant is lazy or mis informed and makes us very sick.Humans make mistakes and people forget is the most nonshalant attitude I think I've ever heard. You need to rethink that, what if your Pharmacist made a mistake and forget to put the right medicine in you bottle and you became deathly ill. You have a responsibilty to the public!

By W.DeBord on Saturday, April 08, 2000 - 11:41 pm: Edit

Panini I find this shocking but at my current job the health dept. calls first about aweek before they come. I just don't get that! Their inspections are well meaning but often misguided. Meaning they worry about the type of door closing device on the employee bathrooms but don't care that we don't have a "wash hands before returning to work" sign posted anywhere.

We only have one person liensed in the whole club. After failing a pop quiz. the chef has been forced to seek his liense. I do my best, but I'm not sure how I could change what the other people around me do. I keep my area spotless and nag them about safety. I am often grossed out by raw chicken here and there and not cleaned (as I would at my own home) with strong detergents. Other than bring it to their attention I have no power to change other people, how can that be solved?

By jeee2 on Sunday, April 09, 2000 - 06:08 am: Edit


I know zero about microbiology, you could have a masters degree in it but lacking common sense you'd be the more dangerous of us.
"Humans make mistakes and people forget is the most nonshalant attitude I think I've ever heard. "
Nonchalant is an opinion, humans being humans is fact.
"You may have knowlege of food safety but that certainly does not mean your employees do. "
I have no knowledge of food safety but I have French training and I pass that on.
"People usually think common sense is what they grew up with in the home" common sense is god given, its a choice some people decide not to use it.
People with impaired immune systems should not eat in restaurants period.
Cheers, Gerard

By jeee2 on Sunday, April 09, 2000 - 06:14 am: Edit

"Panini I find this shocking but at my current job the health dept. calls first about aweek before they come. "
Thats is what I call a corrupt system. Unethical and immoral.
You can put 100 signs up about hand washing but it means nothing if they don't use soap or even water.
<how can that be solved? <<
work with better people.
A lot of the code is complete nonesense, if it made some sense people would be inclined not to ignore it.

By momoreg on Sunday, April 09, 2000 - 08:59 am: Edit

Last year, the New York Times published a list of a couple hundred restaurants, and how they rated health-wise, and some of the scores were downright frightening. One of the lowest was Ollie's, and the violations were repeated over and over. Their doors should've been closed years ago, but they are still there. I asked my husband just now if he'd ever go back to Ollie's, and he said he might consider it. That, to me, is crazy (not to bad mouth my own husband), but anyone who goes in there is just asking for trouble. How do places like that survive?

By d. on Sunday, April 09, 2000 - 01:03 pm: Edit

Mikeh, the letters grade needs to be posted on the front door or somewhere near where it is visible to the eye. The report itself is not posted, but is available from the health department or the restaurant(i think) if you really want to see it. This all came about about 2-3 years ago when a TV station did an undercover report on food safety here in LA. It became a huge issue because they were discovering that the health department was understaffed(hence establishments were not inspected), some inspectors were corrupt or just did a half-assed job(video of rat droppings on the floor of a well-known restaurant and after being inspected it wasn't called to their attention, and staff just leaving it there for months) and that a lot of food handling was just being done incorrectly.

By d. on Sunday, April 09, 2000 - 01:03 pm: Edit

Undercover videos of supermarkets mixing old ground beef(dated a week) with the new batch and packaging it, people smoking while cooking(as the ashes fell on a salad!), rodents and cockroaches scurrying about, you name it. I know these are extreme situations and don't mean they exist everywhere...but just the fact that they exist, education on food handling definitely needs to be passed on.
Even up to now, I have seen a couple of places that don't even enforce chefs and cooks to wear hats. And even when you watch programs on Food TV, the chefs touch all this raw chicken and meat then wipe there hands on a nice little towel and proceed to chop chocolate or whatever.

By Panini (Panini) on Sunday, April 09, 2000 - 02:15 pm: Edit

Are you for real? I can't believe your that ignorant!If you work long hours you probably fit into the catagory of impared immune! What are you saying, you don't give a sh--! You don't care about the young and the old customers you have?
My wife and I have both had cancer, we should not eat out at restaurants?COMMON SENSE should guide you to educate yourself on food safety!!! Your going to start to do hot lunches? I wonder how many people you will make ill and how many of those impaired immune people you might kill! Does common sense tell you to cool something simple things like beans to 70f in 2 hrs and to 41f in 4.
The FDA has plenty of knowlege on this subject, they are not corrupt!!! Your local area might be corrupt, obviously, I don't think you would be able to pass the food handlers test here never mind the food production test.
If you glance at the new reports for 2000 you will see that they are designed to address the more critical issues of food safety. temps,HACCP,etc. I don't know if you'll adopt them locally or not. Youir point system will start a zero and add up per violation.

You can put a hundred signs up to wash hands but it means nothing if they don,t use soap or even water.How can that be solved? Work with beter people?
MONITOR YOUR PEOPLE! EDUCATE YOUR PEOPLE!tALK TO YOUR PEOPLE! of course if you don't know the proper techniques than how can you teach!
Let me tell you. You might learn something.
1 only a hand sink -not mop, dish, production sink
2 use soap
3 rub vigorously for at least 20 seconds
4 rinse with clean water
5 dry with disposable towel or heated-air dry
6 use hand sanitizer if you will be touching ready to eat food.

By jeee2 on Sunday, April 09, 2000 - 02:45 pm: Edit


I think I'll just ignore your rant.

Cheers, Gerard

By jeee2 on Sunday, April 09, 2000 - 02:53 pm: Edit


Depending where you are rodents and cockroaches can be near to impossible to beat back. I had a rat for weeks, ever try catching one those? it was like wily coyote, I eventually discovered it was eating choc and mixed some posion (that it wouldn't eat) into some choc and left it in front of the case it had chewed open.
Cockroaches are not a sign of anything but roaches and have nothing to do with cleanliness.
I've never wore a hat and never will, it means nothing.

By jeee2 on Sunday, April 09, 2000 - 03:03 pm: Edit


<watch programs on Food TV, the chefs touch all this raw chicken <

Cross contamination is the biggest danger, they wipe their hands on a towel and start mixing salad. If they wash their hands and always dry them on their personal towel they have reinfected again. Smoking is not a problem with food, its "politically incorrect" which is an irrational theory , the term comes from communism.
And NO I don't refrigerate fresh eggs.

By W.DeBord on Sunday, April 09, 2000 - 03:22 pm: Edit

Panini I had no sarcasim in my post. I mean from a co-employee prosective how is it best to handle some of these issues? We don't have meetings and if you act like a know-it-all telling people how to do things, words fall into deaf ears. I just sort of poke fun of issues to bring them up in a non-treatening way. I take safe food handling very seriously, I never use the guys stuff (boards etc..) and explain to them why they shouldn't use some of mine.

I didn't understand "glance at the reports", what reports, where? Or the points system, is this something that's going to be national? Educate me I'm open....

By Panini (Panini) on Sunday, April 09, 2000 - 03:54 pm: Edit

W.DeBord, I was just trying to mention that the new inspections were going to focus on more critical than less critical thing. I just chose to tell you in the middle of my rant. I know you weren't being sarcastic. I ment the 2000 FDA guidelines, sorry.
Gerard, hit home ha?
IGNORE my rant.
I'm sorry I ever started this thread, the IGNORANCE make me sick!!Probably in more ways than one.I know its prevelent in the industry but I did not think people would not try to do
anything about it.

By Kathyf (Kathyf) on Sunday, April 09, 2000 - 04:23 pm: Edit

Gerard - Exactly what business are you in and how many SATISFIED customers do you have? You don't seem at all interested in pleasing your customers or being decent to anyone.
Do you have a clue as to how many people have impaired immune systems? If they didn't eat out and buy prepared foods a lot of places would be out of business in no time!!!!!

By mikebel on Sunday, April 09, 2000 - 05:35 pm: Edit

Here in new zealand at the other side of the world with 4 million people and twice the amount of sheep im sitting here in my little study wondering what it would be like to eat in usa, I must say that you people are very knowledgable when it comes to methods ingredients and such But by golly gosh the food hygiene/food safety issues dont seem to be held in to much support.Here EVERYONE in the kitchen has to watch 2 hr video on safety/health and 1 in 3 has to have a HACCP accredited certificate, we are inspected 4 times a year and will be closed down if we keep ignoring/ or having a bad record.Im in support with this because when i go out i can enjoy the meal without worry can u p.s (to the people who do know the rules or to the people who are willing to learn them good on ya its the ones that think ignorance is bliss that get my back up).

By jeee2 on Sunday, April 09, 2000 - 05:49 pm: Edit


<Do you have a clue as to how many people have impaired immune systems? If they didn't eat out and buy prepared foods a lot of places would be out of business in no time!!!!! <<

that is a wildly exagerated statement based in hysteria.

By jeee2 on Sunday, April 09, 2000 - 05:52 pm: Edit

<hit home?<<

No, as I said I think you are ranting and don't care why.

By jeee2 on Sunday, April 09, 2000 - 05:55 pm: Edit


<Exactly what business are you in and how many SATISFIED customers do you have? <

This one. Too many to count.

and yourself , what business are you in?

Regards, Gerard

By Panini (Panini) on Sunday, April 09, 2000 - 09:04 pm: Edit

I care alot about food safety, obviously you don't. So we disagree. the masses may prefer to eat manufactured foods because they might think the standards of care are higher. Think about that. In my retail shop I have an open kitchen, it has become the biggest selling point of the whole concept. So people do care!

By jeee2 on Sunday, April 09, 2000 - 11:31 pm: Edit


<I care alot about food safety, obviously you don't. <

Obviously I don't ?. This is nuts.
You're assuming I don't care because I disagree with you. I don't need the FDA to teach me how to handle food thank you very much, I'm the professional, they are gvmnt nitwits.
The demand for kitchen help has so vastly oustripped supply that training just doesn't have a chance to keep up, so we now have everything dumbed down. It should work the other way around, newbies should be expected to work up to our level and if they have no common sense they should find another line of work.
I consider common sense the most important attribute when hiring, people with none just can't be taught to think.

By d. on Sunday, April 09, 2000 - 11:44 pm: Edit

"smoking is not a problem with food" --- I'm assuming you don't mind eating the salad with cigarette ash that the cook mixed with his hands after constantly touching his mouth to get a drag of his cigarette? What if he's got a hacking cough and or a cold while he is doing this? I don't care if the chef smokes 10 packs, just don't do it while preparing my food and wash your hands after a smoke! As for the rodents and roaches, I certainly would want to find one in my food. The problem is that they spread disease through their waste and by touching food or food-contact surfaces. Their feces can be carried or fall into food.
As for the hat issue, well that's up to you. I just would not be a happy customer pulling a strand of hair out of my napoleon....

By jeee2 on Monday, April 10, 2000 - 12:20 am: Edit


I'll educate you.
The problem with pests is not as you state, the real problem is flies. Day in , day out they infect more than anything else ever has or will.
People don't notice flies but they are the biggest germ carrier.
No I don't think anyone died from cigarette ash or a hair in anything. As you say its perception , not infection related so lets keep things reality based and eliminate hysteria.
FDA regulations allow for 5 parts per million of rat hair in food. Thats reality.

By tj on Monday, April 10, 2000 - 11:10 am: Edit

as for the cigarette ashes, they are is all nonsense, believe me.when i was in the french air force as a young kid, we used to smoke 2 of 3 cigarettes and put the ashes in a cup.then add water and drink it. after about an hour the body temperature rose about 2 degrees ,and we would go to the doctor to get a release from work that always worked ! the body temperature came down after about 2 hours ,so we had to get in line for the medical officer fast.this is all that cigarette ashes do to you.and today 40 years later , i am alive and well.

By Gord (Gord) on Monday, April 10, 2000 - 01:46 pm: Edit


Good trick. That's hilarious.

However, the ashes did have a systemic effect on your body (temperature rose). The logic of your argument, that 40 years later you are alive and well and therefore it was not bad for you, would further suppose that smoking isn't bad for you either as you didn't die of lung cancer either. Yet medical evidence shows that smoking is related very directly to specific types of lung cancer.

While I am glad you have a healthy constitution (probably your feistiness drives off ill-health -said in a good-humoured way - ), eating ashes may not be for everyone. It could just be the cancer researchers haven't gotten around to investigating the links betwen cancer and ash consumption (because, let's face it, that's not a really common thing to do).

Presuming it is safe is, perhaps, a touch reckless when dealing with the health of others.

I'm also guessing no-one dares to miss your class because of a high temperature either :)


By momoreg on Monday, April 10, 2000 - 01:49 pm: Edit

Yeah, but the hand -to-mouth thing is the main problem, and besides, it's just not responsible or professional to smoke while preparing food.

By Gord (Gord) on Monday, April 10, 2000 - 02:28 pm: Edit

well, yeah, there is THAT too :)

By Panini (Panini) on Monday, April 10, 2000 - 04:09 pm: Edit

Your dissagreement with me IS sanitation. I choose to follow the educated medical way. You choose common sense.

The F'in FDA are the only people intersted in our health. Not the sanitation know nothings that trained you. You keep mentioning COMMON SENSE , common sense tell you to learn about food safety.
Flies? Your nuts! hand to hand contact is the leading cause of food borne illness.This is 2000.
Its about tome we can trace illnesses like this.Back when you were trained they classified these as "died from natural causes".

By tj on Monday, April 10, 2000 - 06:08 pm: Edit

well, i used to smoke like a chu-chu train but i quite 20 years ago. smoking in the kitchen does`nt realy buther me ,it has no effect on the food, and i think the ashes dont do harm, if they ever find there way to the food. i am not talking about smoking and prepering food at the same time, i am just talking about smoking in the kitchen area which ,unless it personaly bothers some of the staff, is harmless to the food.
as for the ash trick, is a very very old one.i am sure the guys in the us military know of it.if not , when you need a day off , give it a doctor has ever known it is related to ashes you just drank. but i do wonder what is the reaction in the body that make this happen for a couple of hours...

By W.DeBord on Monday, April 10, 2000 - 06:41 pm: Edit

Zoom...right over the top.

By Panini (Panini) on Monday, April 10, 2000 - 07:01 pm: Edit

I appeal to all those not living in the past and those chefs that are up to date with food safety.
Gerard, I give up you win! tj keep smoking in the kitchen, if you two can't see that when you smoke you are touching your mouths and that secondary smoke is harmful there is no changing that,

out break salmonella cheerleading camp- two girls die, many hospitalized.

out break e.coli fast food rest. 6 dead thousands sick. manufacturing plant closed down.

Does anyone have an opinion on irradiated products? Comming soon.

should those cheese danish be refigerated?

Can you hook up a hose to the mop sink fawcet to spray the floors?

Staphylococcus, juans got a cut on his hand , do you sent him home?

cnayou completely get rid of mico organisms by sterilizing?
How long can food sit out in the danger zone?

By d. on Monday, April 10, 2000 - 07:01 pm: Edit

Thanks for the education, but I disagree. People are the biggest germ carriers with their dirty hands(not observing proper hygiene when going to the bathroom, when blowing their nose and coughing, sneezing, touching or leaving infected sores uncovered, etc.)and not having enough knowledge of safe food handling. So we don't die from eating ashes or hair --- but it's still disgusting and unsafe and when I'm a customer paying for a good plate of food, all I want to find on that plate is FOOD! And I don't consider it hysteria, but concern for the people who are eating in my establishment.

By jeee2 on Monday, April 10, 2000 - 09:07 pm: Edit

I think y'all missed a little point here, I wash my hands, I tell others to start and continue by washing but the flies don't listen to a word I say.

That which is beyond our control is the bigger threat.

By jeee2 on Monday, April 10, 2000 - 09:21 pm: Edit


Irradiation is cheaper than changing the egg industry methods of feeding heads and feet mixed into their feed pellets. Soft money wins.

Cheese danish? that depends whether you sell day old or toss them out.

Mop sinks are a bane, I fought that one off.

Juan got a cut?
do you send people home with sniffles too?

Danger zone, untrained morons who are too slow to keep things in their proper place, too slow to get the work done and put away are causing these rules to be foisted upon the industry.
The danger zone are the people who are incompetent for food work, unfortunately the schools churn them out and health codes have to change to accomodate their lack of training or unsuitability for their career choice.

I fought the health dept on ham and cheese croiss and won, according the "code" they should either hot or chilled, I showed with lab tests there is another way. Don't try this at home.

By tj on Monday, April 10, 2000 - 11:03 pm: Edit

how is secondary smoke harmfull for food?
you probebly meen for people who work in the kitchen?
i dont allow smoking in my kitchen cause other complain.i was a long time ago ,but i worked at some places that it was ok to smoke but not near the food, so people step aside for 5 minutes to the storage area and smoke.i am not very concerned with is not harmful for the food that leaves the kitchen.

By Panini (Panini) on Tuesday, April 11, 2000 - 03:22 pm: Edit

I already surrendered to you, its like urinating into the wind, excuse the expression. It looses something in the translation from Italian to english.
I'd like to talk with you more aboutfood safety but I find myself talking at you, seperating the business talk to personal.
It may be me, but it appears that you might not have the patience to teach, you seem to classify most untrained or normal people as morons. This reminds me of my training days when I fought to get to work with an award winning chef only to find they chose to classify me as a moron.
Most of those chefs are no longer winning awards.

You must refrigerate or hold prepared items. There is no lab testing. That product can be put out for 4 hours. Your local health dept. has nothing to due with facts.The real facts are with the FDA.Food can be spoiled, that does not mean it has to be contaminated. That croissant, if left out can become contaminated, lab test or not!
Getting old, I just wanted to know if the industry is fully, partially, or non educated in food safety.

By jeee2 on Wednesday, April 12, 2000 - 08:33 am: Edit


its a potential problem, a real problem in the hands of morons and thats the difference.
Guidlines are what the FDA passes to the states but you can appeal anything, lab tests proved it, they are replicatible and the lab wanted me to take them to court (they took a personal interest when I gave them croissants to eat) but the health dept backed down.

I wouldn't teach in a school but I have taught my apprentice very well, he's a young skull full of mush but will be OK , he's 21 and shows up at 1am 7 days a week, doesn't act a victim when I blast him and never sits down. Never takes a lunch break nor coffee break. Thats how I taught him its not legal and I don' care.
I might rent him out.

PS, the FDA are idiots.
the CDC is politically affected, research money hungry. They will say what they are told to.

By W.DeBord on Wednesday, April 12, 2000 - 08:44 am: Edit

ZOOM...there it went again!

Help, I've become rude too.

By jeee2 on Wednesday, April 12, 2000 - 01:09 pm: Edit


<Help, I've become rude too. <<

I don't think you're rude, just exitable.

Regards, Gerard
(ooo my old bones creakin..)

By momoreg on Wednesday, April 12, 2000 - 02:42 pm: Edit

Comedy central has nothing on you two.

By Panini (Panini) on Wednesday, April 12, 2000 - 05:08 pm: Edit

hey Gerard,
Whats the deal? You seem to be a moron magnet.ha ha. I'm just trying to keep it light. I have some very major problems with the FDA, but it is like any other thing. Therte are the good and the bad
The studies that are not biased by people or organizations with agendas are wonderful. There are a lot of people working very hard, We need some sort of guidelines, don't we?
Why are you tired of baking, catering is going to be just as taxing on your mind and body.Is'nt it?
You have been tough on DeBord,sometimes I wondered if you hated women or considered her a moron.I don't care what she uses for ingredients but she comes here for comrodery sp? and seems to be passionate about what she does. I respect her for hanging in there with you.

By momoreg on Wednesday, April 12, 2000 - 07:04 pm: Edit

Nobody here knows everything there is to know about pastry, and no matter how much training a person has, there is no need to degrade them by insulting them personally OR professionally. By saying that you are not criticizing somebody personally, but that it is a professional criticism does not make it right, because many of us put our heart and soul into our work.

By W.DeBord on Wednesday, April 12, 2000 - 10:43 pm: Edit

Excuse me Panini, "moron magnet", I hope I'm not understanding you correctly?

By jeee2 on Thursday, April 13, 2000 - 12:08 am: Edit


<We need some sort of guidelines, don't we? <

Thats what they are meant to be, not handcuffs.
You can appeal anything you think is wrong but it has to be documented and we really had to do all the work for them.
I want to expand and baking isn't expanable unless you have some good bakers that will work as cheap as cooks. Profit margin on food is a lot higher than baked, its also cheaper labor.
Everything we cook is done in bulk, pastry is dinky handwork done one at a time.
Having full control of the baking end gives us a major advantage over other caterers. Example, my brother just did a reception for the symphony, 600 people @ $55 a head. Whens the last time we saw $33K for 3 days prep.?
My partner Helen (who deals with the public..not me) worked at this place for yrs and thinks this is the direction we have to go. I'm game.

By W.DeBord on Thursday, April 13, 2000 - 07:30 am: Edit

This conversation would fit nicely under "lack of bakers" thread. That's how my family got into catering, more profit for less work.

By Panini (Panini) on Thursday, April 13, 2000 - 02:33 pm: Edit

I understand what you are talking about in catering, 33k for three days prep, 72 hr of headaches,forgeting things , organizing.It all sounds great! but what if you don't have another function for 3 weeks. I have two close relatives in NY who run a catering business, they do it for the money like you are talking about. They are the two most miserable people I know, they walk around and talk about their business like you do about your bakery. I'm sure you will be sucessful and maybe thats what your customers are dictating to you at this point, but what control does having a bakery have over a caterer other than bread and dessert?

What did you think I meant? It just seemed to me that everyone who Gerard hired was a moron. I hope I did not offend you in anyway.

By jeee2 on Thursday, April 13, 2000 - 02:42 pm: Edit


<33k for three days prep, 72 hr of headaches,forgeting things , organizing.It all sounds great! but what if you don't have another function for 3 weeks. <

I wouldn't NEED another function for a month!
We have a steady corp client who pays steady right now plus the bakery is running smoothly.

<what control does having a bakery have over a caterer other than bread and dessert? <
Maybe I'm talking about baking skills as they apply to food, I've always thought it an advantage as baking is more a science. I just have dreadfull personal taste but Helen is good with that.

<They are the two most miserable people I know<
Thats what they say about you too. Honest!

<everyone who Gerard hired was a moron. <
darn tootin and I tell them, they never seem to believe me though...!

By W.DeBord on Thursday, April 13, 2000 - 10:48 pm: Edit

I thought you meant I was the moron attacted to his magnet.? I guess I've gotten alittle jumpy waiting for another attack. One thought blends into another from one posting to the next, sorry if I was wrong! :)

By Panini (Panini) on Friday, April 14, 2000 - 05:16 pm: Edit

"thats what they say about you"
If your talking about the people here, and I've come off has hating what I do, I've been grossly misunderstood.Corse I can't type worth a sh--.
If your talking about my cousins, no way! They know I'm having alot of fun.
I gotta tell you the truth, I can't wait to get into the business in the morning.I have not gone to work in 6 years.
It's also very comforting to know where I can send any morons that I come across.
I really mean it when I say I hope you do great with the catering,I'm thinking about it, I found a piece of property and a 8000 sq building that I would like to buy,there is plenty of room for a caterer or doing it myself.

By jeee2 on Friday, April 14, 2000 - 06:56 pm: Edit

It pretty well comes down this, people in catering who don't like it probably don't handle stress or aren't good at it in one way or another.
It only looks easy and lucrative from across the street, its easy to get in, easy to snag accounts but its even easier to lose your shirt.
If I didn't have my partner I wouldn't consider it and I HAVE many yrs experience in catering.

<Corse I can't type worth a <
and yuo can't spel.

By Panini (Panini) on Friday, April 14, 2000 - 07:54 pm: Edit

jeeez, thats what I've been trying to express to you over that last couple week. I just wanted to be sure you knew the pitfals. My cousins are living check to check and have adapted the lifestyle of their high end customers.I to, have many cooking years. and I say this quietly as not to churn up anything, you can teach a pastry person to cook with ease but you can hardly make a pastry person out of a cook.
Good luck, and I really enjoy seeing you lunch menus, corse I would like to steal.But I can offer to.

By jeee2 on Saturday, April 15, 2000 - 05:55 am: Edit

<you can teach a pastry person to cook with ease but you can hardly make a pastry person out of a cook. <

Hahahaha, thems fight'n words.!
If you ever need a cheese cake recipe always ask a chef, thats what they always tell me they do really well...but not much else.

<My cousins are living check to check and have adapted the lifestyle of their high end customers.<
Shux, thats got nothin to do with catering, they'd have that problem doing anything.

Nextr catering job is a batch of polenta, split it into 3 portions whilst hot , add puree of red pepper to one and puree spinach to the other. Pour the yellow one onto a deep pan followed by the green then the red. After it cools we cut it into tri colored slices and layer into a napoleon with ratatouille.
Dessert will be frozen biscuit tortoni with rasps instead of crushed macaroons, a splash of grand marnier and bag into clear plastic glasses.
I use triple sec instead of grand marnier, we might be morons but we're not stupid morons.

By Panini (Panini) on Saturday, April 15, 2000 - 08:59 pm: Edit

you can teach a pastry person to cook.
Read it again!
triple sec? morons? over my head !

By d. on Sunday, April 16, 2000 - 12:03 pm: Edit

Gerard, what is a frozen biscuit tortoni? Can you please describe more in detail the elements involved? Sounds yummy.

By Gerard (Gerard) on Sunday, April 16, 2000 - 03:41 pm: Edit

Biscuit Tortoni, very quick and simple(to screw up too)
8 eggs
16 oz sugar
1qt heavy cream
crushed macaroons.
vanilla, liquer etc to taste.

On the mixer...preferably with 2 bowls and whips.
seperate the eggs, split the sugar in half and whip 8 yolks with 8 oz sugar until very stiff, add splash or whatever liquer you like(marnier etc).

whip the whites halfway then add the sugar slowly and whip stiff, plop the whites on the yolks (in a larger stainless bowl) and start the cream whipping on high speed til stiff.

Fold the whites in halfway then add the whipped cream and fold it all together until the cream is just vanishing. Its done. It takes 3-4 minutes from beginning to end unless you have to stop and wash bowls.
I don't bother with the crushed macaroons.

It doesn't freeze very hard and people easily mistake it for ice cream but its much lighter in texture. It would also adapt well to some fruit paste, I did rasp for a catering gig with strawbs dipped in red glaze on top with a choc curl and xxxxx sugar when we put it out for service.
Yields approx 20 indiv tall glasses .
cost; around $5.

By Gerard (Gerard) on Sunday, April 16, 2000 - 03:48 pm: Edit

Biscuit (biskwee or bis-kit)?

Lets see, a biscuit is many things depending on the country its in/from.
It Italy its a light egg based mousse with crushed cookies.(bis-kwee)
In France its a seperated egg sponge cake.
In England its just the cookie.(biss-kit)
In America its a sugarless scone.?

same name, many products, dependent on its genesis.

By W.DeBord on Sunday, April 16, 2000 - 03:52 pm: Edit

I also enjoy tortoni. Spagos' book has a tastie toffee tortoni and chocolate flavor is also nice. You can add whatever, just like icecream for a more interesting chew or crunch. If I recall correctly the ones I've made I did cook my yolks with poured in syrup. I wish more people (customers) knew what it was, they are really easy it whip together. The consistancy and flavor is really close to a frozen souffle.

By Pam (Pam) on Sunday, April 16, 2000 - 06:36 pm: Edit

Hey Gerard, I just learned something.I had only known a biscuit(biskwee) as a sponge. I always just figured biscuit tortoni was called that because of the pieces of macaroons in it. macaroons=cake DUHHH

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