|By Croissantdor (Croissantdor) on Thursday, May 02, 2002 - 05:14 am: Edit|
what an amazing forum, I never knew it even existed until today!
I am after a place (anywhere in the world) that makes Croissant Baking Trays. It would be greatly appreciated.
Croissant D'Or Bakery
|By Chefspike (Chefspike) on Thursday, May 02, 2002 - 10:35 am: Edit|
whats a croissant baking tray??
isen't that just a sheet tray, with paper?
please don't tell me that they make trays that have indentations on them the shape of croissants.
please don't tell me..........
|By Corey (Corey) on Friday, May 03, 2002 - 11:41 pm: Edit|
they have trays for all kinds of stuff, great for cooks with not much artistic talent. I couldn't make maddelines look good, so I went to ResCo in Las Vegas here and saw all kinds of trays and things. It was like I was in a toy store for chefs. all I did buy thou besides the trays was a onion blossoming device.
|By Chefspike (Chefspike) on Saturday, May 04, 2002 - 12:06 am: Edit|
Dear Corey, The following "RANT" has nothing to do with you or your input on this thread.
"great for cooks with not much artistic talent"
This is the kind of crap that gets me pis*ed. Who in the hell can't roll a croissant???
Cut, roll, bend, place on tray. What? are these people dumbas*es or what?
they have trays for all kinds of stuff, great for cooks with not much artistic talent. I couldn't make madd
Makes me PUKE!!!!!.
|By Croissantdor (Croissantdor) on Saturday, May 04, 2002 - 11:48 pm: Edit|
Look, I know that making croissants is not hard. I have been in business making solely croissants for 28 years. I am also currently the biggest croissant producer and distributo in Australia, so I know what I'm talking about.
The reason I'm asking this is because, we currently cannot find anyone fast enough to work for us. My two sons both work for me and have done so for most of their lives, and have therefore been "brought up" in the bakery. People that we employ simply cannot keep up with the croissant machine, as well as maintain good shape, even spacing, and speed with the dough.
This is why I am looking for croissant trays. If all someone had to do was pick up the rolled croissant and place it into the tray, then they couldn't go wrong!!! (i hope)
This was a serious question, and I'm still looking for a serious answer.
|By Cheftim (Cheftim) on Sunday, May 05, 2002 - 01:29 am: Edit|
|By Chefgbs (Chefgbs) on Sunday, May 05, 2002 - 05:00 am: Edit|
Even I, a humble hot chef (hot referring to food, not ability and attitude) can roll a croissant. But, I can't do it with any kind of speed. The times, they are a changin', as I'm sure you have noticed. Everyone is a specialist, like you alluded to in our last major discussion. Very few people can do everything and be the best at at it. We don't have to be or else a lot of people wouldn't have jobs, myself included. I haven't been seeing the kind of Puritan work ethic in great force like when we were growing up. So the thought of a product to make life a little easier sounds pretty good. AND, I would be willing to bet that for generations before us, they were saying the same things.
Just like in baseball and football, there are a lot more restaurants that are opening up with dizzying frequency, a ton more cooking schools to supply the cannon fodder and the talent has become diluted. How many really good quarterbacks are there, for instance. There isn't a whole lot of time, or inclination for that matter to strive to be the best at everything when your services are needed RIGHT NOW. Sorry, can't wait 15 years while youe try to learn everything, we need your body on the line NOW.
Last night on the History Channel, they showed a program on the role of seargents in the US military. One of the men interviewed is a retired Marine seargent who is currently an actor. You'd recognize him if you saw him. Anyway, he went on to say that although he did not agree with some of the things being done in the Corps now (because they seemed too genteel - my words -), he could not argue with the end product. So what's wrong with a convenience product here and there? Or a product that increases productivity?
Peace, my friend.
|By Chefgbs (Chefgbs) on Sunday, May 05, 2002 - 05:02 am: Edit|
Could we get some samples please?
Ciao for now
|By Chefspike (Chefspike) on Sunday, May 05, 2002 - 12:16 pm: Edit|
|By Chefspike (Chefspike) on Sunday, May 05, 2002 - 12:19 pm: Edit|
Don't confuse Talent,...with labor.
|By Chefgbs (Chefgbs) on Sunday, May 05, 2002 - 01:53 pm: Edit|
Seeing as how I am just a dumb ole northerner Yankee fan, please explain what you mean. We were all labor at one point before the talent/skill came out. Oh, BTW, watch the language, okay? My sensitive ears, you know? I never heard such language in all my years. LOL
Ciao for now
|By Chefmanny (Chefmanny) on Sunday, May 05, 2002 - 03:23 pm: Edit|
How does a pan increase speed?????
Dumb, of Dumb & Dummer
|By Chefspike (Chefspike) on Sunday, May 05, 2002 - 04:03 pm: Edit|
yea, good point.
|By Cheftim (Cheftim) on Sunday, May 05, 2002 - 04:42 pm: Edit|
simply cannot keep up with the croissant machine, as well as maintain good shape, even spacing, and speed with the dough.
good shape, even spacing, and speed
|By Chefmanny (Chefmanny) on Sunday, May 05, 2002 - 05:17 pm: Edit|
So the answer is...get amachine that shapes, spaces at various speeds, after the first machine finishes the dough or...hire more humans (or better qualified humans) for the end of the first machine.
I guess that's why Vie De France makes the big bucks with their frozen products right???
Cooks with not much "artistic talents" (cooking abilities) are shoemakers aren't they?????
|By Cheftim (Cheftim) on Sunday, May 05, 2002 - 05:48 pm: Edit|
Now I really don't understand.
Croissantdor wanted Croissant Trays to increase productivity.
Spike and Manny think thats the shoemaker way out because real chefs would just use sheet pans.
Croissantdor explains he's not using real chefs just regular labor.
Manny says firer them all and get a machine.
YOur a shoemaker if you use preformed pans but not if you use a machine?
Lucy..there going to be some splaining to do.
|By Chefspike (Chefspike) on Sunday, May 05, 2002 - 05:50 pm: Edit|
"good shape, even spacing, and speed"
good shape comes from cutting the dough correctly.
even spacing comes from putting them on the pan, the same way every time, at the same spacing between each one.
and speed, well...heres the man's major problem ise'nt it? If the machine kicks out at 500 per hour, you need to have people that can roll 500 per hour. No my mistake, 501 per hour.
I think getting more humans is the route to go.
Thats if the budget allows it. Devide what comes off the machine into 2 parts, or three's or fours.
Pans are not the answer. Theres no guarentee that the people are going to place the product in the center of the indentation. Oh and thats called...........LABOR, not talent.( chefgbs )
It's good to read you here again, Manny.
Your input made me think of other things.
|By Chefspike (Chefspike) on Sunday, May 05, 2002 - 05:55 pm: Edit|
Oh Tim, Chef,............
Pans are not the answer here.
It's not a question of chef's or talent.
It's how fast can you go???
If one person can't or won't, you add another, and maybe another.
|By Chefspike (Chefspike) on Sunday, May 05, 2002 - 05:59 pm: Edit|
Oh crap! forgot something.
The or a machine has nothing to do with being a shoemaker.
This man is trying to produce ONE thing.
And complete the quota(sp) for the day,week, ect.
|By Cheftim (Cheftim) on Sunday, May 05, 2002 - 06:08 pm: Edit|
I take everyone that post in this forum at face value.
If Croissantdor wants trays I want to help him find trays. I haven't seen his operation, the labor market or any of a hundred other factors that may make it absolutely necessary to use trays. It's his business, he's been doing it for 28 years, I gota think he knows what he needs and not try to second guess him.
|By Chefspike (Chefspike) on Sunday, May 05, 2002 - 07:23 pm: Edit|
It's not an attack on anyone.
Just a bunch of people giving opinions, from the different backgrounds that we have, and share here. Yours being as important as anyone else's.
As you know, if I'm in a room, working with 2 other chef's, I know one thing.............
Those two are doing it wrong.
|By Chefgbs (Chefgbs) on Sunday, May 05, 2002 - 09:41 pm: Edit|
You are starting to sound like a real chef again. I like that. Think about how people learn to dance. They got those footprints showing people where to put their feet. Same concept, seems to me. You practice putting your feet where the footprints are and after a while, you don't need the footprints. You put the croissants where they need to go on the pan because of those nice little markings, after a while, you don't need those pans anymore. Then you go find another job. Then the next wave of newbies need those pans all over again. Let me ask you something. Do you have a cell phone? If so, how did you manage before you had one? Do you use silk pads? If yes, why? When I saw them, I bought 6 for myself. Screw the pastry chef. Why, because I'm the chef and I can do whatever the hell I want. Seriously, they are a fantastic product. Do I need them? No, not really. I do just fine with parchment or quillon papers. But when I'm making 300 parmesan tuiles, they make my life a whole lot easier. Is that labor or talent? I would much rather work smarter than harder.
I don't think I'm confusing talent with labor. Like I said before, the talent pool is pretty diluted these days, even with the proliferation of cooking schools so where I am, I find myself as the only one in the kitchen who has any kind of meaningful experience. I am not running a cooking school, although I do try to train the hell out of my staff. If I can use a product that helps productivity because I know I'm not going to get more staff, I'll use it and show them the right way when I can. Unless one was born as God's gift to the kitchen, they have to start somewhere.
You say that getting more humans is the answer if the budget allows. If not, then what is the answer? Tell customers, sorry, can't fill your order today.
|By Chefspike (Chefspike) on Sunday, May 05, 2002 - 11:00 pm: Edit|
mark the paper on the bottom side, where the product goes.
Use the paper more than once.
No cell phone. When I'm not home, or at work, you don't get ahold of me.
After 12 tuiles you should know where they go on the paper/pan. Thats called making yourself LEARN, and getting BETTER without someone kicking you in your A**, or holding a grade above your head. Many, maybe I should say, at least half of the Young chef's I know are nothing but *Menu Collector's*. They work here and there, then get the BIG chance to star in their own kitchen. Then they take from those MENU's what they want and make a new menu. THEN, call themselfs CHEF's.
Throw in some photo's from the lastest food mag and whamo-presto! Hey look ma, I'm a chef!
Here in LA. 95% of the new Rest's that open, close in the first 3 years? Maybe sooner. Can't be the owners fault all the time. Can't be the customers fault cause they want new and exciding. It's not the fault of the poor slob who walks in and sells the equipment, you know, like pans. Who's fault is it then. Ummmmm?
The Menu Collector's. People who never dug any deeper than what they had to, to just get by.
Learn on the fly....."Yes, lite starch on that chefs jacket and can I have my name on it?"
Learn how to use a knife before the r*o*b*o*c*o, I think thats the PROPER order of things. Learn the MOTHER sauce's then the other's.
This is a RAFT. This is a STOCK. Don't cut all that off, your wasting it.
Basic's, basic's, basic's.
How loud does it have to be said, and how many time's?
So the guy in Austr. can't get good, fast help.
I don't have his answer, if I did I'd send him a resume'.
All I know is that one day, when I ask someone something simple, like "what do you use to caramelize the powdered sugar on those egg whites" and they answer "a Iron of course!", I'm going to break down and cry, and then I will know there is a GOD!
Now, go wash your silky things, northerner.
Peace. Hi Manny!
|By Cheftim (Cheftim) on Sunday, May 05, 2002 - 11:01 pm: Edit|
Hey you guys stop you're starting to make me tear up.
Speaking of try new things;
You know Escoffier refused to convert to the new fangled gas oven and stoves and kept the wood and coke fired equipment because he thought that gas just wouldn't perform as well.
|By Chefgbs (Chefgbs) on Monday, May 06, 2002 - 12:52 am: Edit|
3 part message
Are you tearing up because you are laughing too hard?
Chefspike needs you to gang up on me. Come quick!
It's a sorry state of affairs. Not only do chefs like that dilute the talent pool, they also dilute the salaries. I got a call from a well known restaurant in Vermont the other day. They were looking for a chef and after I told her I had already taken another position, we got to talking about what salary I thought she should offer. She gave me figures,e.g. sales, prices, staff levels and I told her it sounded like a $60K job. She was horrified. I know it was Vermont and the salaries are the greatest, but jeeez, can't a guy make a decent living, try to get ahead a little? You know it's funny. My last position paid about the same, about $60K and when I questioned the paltry 1st offer amount, I was told it was because of where they were located. Well, I told them, you are charging NYC prices (rooms were $375-$1000 a night), entrees were in the high 20's, low 30's, property taxes are the 3rd highest in the state, gas and groceries cost the same as in NYC (and no public transportation, so more gas was going to be used), preschool was much higher than I was paying in Long Island, and we were surrounded by so much wealth, that the prices were jacked up to take advantage of the folks who could pay. So I told them their argument wasn't valid, nicely of course. This place had $3MM in sales last year and it amazes me that they were so friggin' cheap about salaries.
Oh well, that nastiness is over. I heard that the chef they replaced me with has already left and the new chef is already referring to himself as the chef of the week. Ain't life grand?
My there are a lot of chefs here tonight.
|By Chefgbs (Chefgbs) on Monday, May 06, 2002 - 12:58 am: Edit|
I just looked at your profile. I had no idea. Great website. I make it one of my daily stops.
Don't get upset, George. I still love you and your website. It's my first stop of the day.
Ciao for now
|By Chefspike (Chefspike) on Monday, May 06, 2002 - 01:36 am: Edit|
Chefspike needs you to gang up on me. Come quick"
I don't need any help holding my own with a silk undie wearing yankee.
Manny knows I can do it all by my self.
|By Chefspike (Chefspike) on Monday, May 06, 2002 - 01:37 am: Edit|
But, don't make me get Panini.............
He'll rip ya a knew one, yankee lover.
|By Chefgbs (Chefgbs) on Monday, May 06, 2002 - 06:59 am: Edit|
I'm not worried about Panini. Sounds like a paisan. So you better watch out. Don't make me come over there Chefspike. What about the Gap ad?
|By Croissantdor (Croissantdor) on Tuesday, May 07, 2002 - 12:19 am: Edit|
To say this is an active forum is definitely an understatement! And I do appreciate all the replies I've had so far, and have enjoyed reading the responses.
Let me run you through how we manufacture the croissants and it might help people to see why I'm after moulded trays. We have one man on the dough sheeter. (we recently purchased an automatic dough sheeter, although someone still needs to be there to make sure it is working properly). The dough then makes it way onto the croissant machine, which cuts and rolls the croissants. Then at the other end is two people standing either side of the machine with (currently) regular sheet pans, who grab the croissants and shape them and place then on the trays/pans.
Just in case you were wondering, the current croissant machine we are using pumps out about 3500 - 4000 of these suckers per hour! Although the actual machine only runs for about 1&1/2 hours at a time, the people that are working on it need to move!!! It's as simple as that.
Now my two sons, and myself can all do this, quite easily. It's trying to find someone else (whether experienced in the field of baking or not) that can do this; that is the problem.
Therefore I thought that maybe the job could be made easier for them if they didn't have to worry about shaping and placement of croissants. All they would have to do is pick it up (making sure the 'tongue' is on the bottom) and place it on the pre-moulded tray.
As I mentioned above, I do appreciate all the responses, and all the help I've received thus far, cheers
|By Pastrycrew (Pastrycrew) on Wednesday, May 08, 2002 - 08:14 am: Edit|
This page has a decent amount of web links. Sorry I didn't find a specific link to where you could purchase what you're looking for.
Good luck in your search,
|By Corey (Corey) on Wednesday, May 08, 2002 - 05:12 pm: Edit|
wow, and I get nervous when they tell me to make
a 100 of them. just 1000 would drive me to drink... via la small restaurants.
|By Chefmanny (Chefmanny) on Wednesday, May 08, 2002 - 07:18 pm: Edit|
After the explanation it makes more sense now, Coissantdor!
You made it sound like having the pans would make production go faster which does not make sense because even if the pan is shaped like the croissant the person laying them down still has to bend them to that angle and, if they under bend or over bend the croissant they will slow down.
I think that if you and your 2 kids can do it someone else can be trained to do it.