The New Bakers Dozen
What do you feel about genetically altered produce?

The The Bakers Dozen: What do you feel about genetically altered produce?
By vbean on Sunday, July 02, 2000 - 02:47 am: Edit

I am very afraid of losing great variety. The difference between a wild strawberrry (or another berry) and it's commercial sales equal is mind blowing.
I could go on and on. The most important message is to eat seasonaly and act globally. Eat tomatoes when they are in season. Eat raspberries when they are in season. Regional foods and recipes should represent the area a person lives.
Eat what you grow.

By vbean on Sunday, July 02, 2000 - 02:57 am: Edit

I also would like to add, I believe that you should always buy organic produce whenever possible. We are the people that can teach this to others.
How many of you care about the quality of the ingredients that you are introducing into another person? Do you read labels? Do you care about pesticides?

By Raine on Sunday, July 02, 2000 - 10:20 am: Edit

The genetically altered fruits and veggies, I believe, are geared towards those people that wouldn't know the difference between a wild strawberry and an altered one. These are the same people that are squeemish about having actual dirt on their "fresh" produce.

By vbean on Sunday, July 02, 2000 - 02:56 pm: Edit

I was at the farmer's market buying organic corn.
A woman handed the farmer a big pile of corn- and said that he should throw them out, they all had insects in the ends. He just smacked them off and put them back in the pile.
I find insects all the time in our fruit and berries. Did you know that strawberries are the most heavily sprayed fruit? (insecticides)

By vbean on Sunday, July 02, 2000 - 02:57 pm: Edit

I was at the farmer's market buying organic corn.
A woman handed the farmer a big pile of corn- and said that he should throw them out, they all had insects in the ends. He just smacked them off and put them back in the pile.
I find insects all the time in our fruit and berries. Did you know that strawberries are the most heavily sprayed fruit? (insecticides)

By vbean on Sunday, July 02, 2000 - 02:57 pm: Edit

I was at the farmer's market buying organic corn.
A woman handed the farmer a big pile of corn- and said that he should throw them out, they all had insects in the ends. He just smacked them off and put them back in the pile.
I find insects all the time in our fruit and berries. Did you know that strawberries are the most heavily sprayed fruit? (insecticides)

By tj on Sunday, July 02, 2000 - 04:39 pm: Edit

in general i think that i want to eat fruits that have good taste.i dont put my trust in either geneticly altered or organic produce.they both have down sides.i think i saw 2 or 3 months ago a report on t.v. (i think it was 20/20 or 60 minutes,or something like that) ,that organic products are not as clean and pure as people might think.there is alot of miss information out there about know, cow manure is organic too...and so is rutten fruit with warms in it.
and so does genetic manipulation,unwanted hormons and DNA mutations usualy makes a long lasting tastless fruits.but i think that in time, genetics will get down to perfection in production, so we can have what ever fruit we want with great taste any day of the year. organic growers have a problem of insects and infections that are dificult to treat or over come ,and not all that i had organic was good.

By tj on Sunday, July 02, 2000 - 04:43 pm: Edit

so ,in my mind, i would buy what ever taste good and fresh.i dont realy care what month it is in the year, as long as the strawberry taste like good fresh strawberry i will buy it , organic or genetic, does not matter to me realy.

By cheftim on Sunday, July 02, 2000 - 05:08 pm: Edit

People have been genetically altering "natural" foods products since the dawn of agriculture. The first genetic altering of animals occurred when the most docile adopted wolf cubs were allowed to breed.

The hyperbole against genetically modified foods is mostly a misunderstanding of science and the hysteria of luddites.

An article in Nutrition News Focus says it better (and nicer) than I. It can be found at:

By vbean on Monday, July 03, 2000 - 01:54 am: Edit

Gee, do you have a PHD in biology? I guess you have the answers! By assuming that science is going to solve humanities food problems (and eating strawberries any time of year "because they taste good" is not going to help) Transporting produce thousands of miles is a waste of enegy.
Farming methods that are less distructive to the earth are important. It is better to learn to coexsist with insects then spraying them to death.
Organic does not alwys taste better (but usually it does).
Just as many types of fish have been overfished and are unavailable (there is a time coming soon when wild seafood will no longer be available).
Making produce more resilant does not make the insects go away. They will just eat something else. Making something more "shippable" is still wasting money.

By vbean on Monday, July 03, 2000 - 02:13 am: Edit

By the way, I grew up around science and history.
My mother is a micro biologist who teaches electron microscopy. My father has a PHD in physiology. Certainly genetic mutations have helped farmers. Most scientists care very much about life.They will also tell you that disturbing the ecosystem (getting rid of all the insects and only growing one crop)-will damge the enviornment.
Agro business cares about making money. Genetic mutations in produce is something that needs to be monitered very closely. Check out
Eat regionaly and seasonaly.

By momoreg on Monday, July 03, 2000 - 08:21 am: Edit

vbean, it's true that shipping fruits all the way up here from Chile is a waste of energy, but unfortunately, the demand for strawberries in February will always exist, as long as the money is there to pay for it. After reading cheftim's link, I agree that we need more education on exactly how the foods are altered, in order to trust them and want to eat them. I buy a lot of organic produce, because I think it's afer for the environment, but I also believe the all natural anything is not necessarily better for your body. For example, people who take all natural sleeping remedies are actually taking the same substance that is found in the prescription version. The biggest differece is that the natural version is not regulated.
Incidentally, did they really clone a tomato and a fish???

By vbean on Tuesday, July 04, 2000 - 01:10 am: Edit

I think that we are not using the best words, natural and organic- since just about everything is. California has very precise regulations on what is called organic produce. It takes about 7 years of testing to be certified organic ( they test the soil and the produce).
I offer my customers what is fresh and in season. If it is stone fruit and berries- that's it. If it is butternut squash, apples, and pears, plus dried fruit- that is it. Right now I have on the menu, peaches, apricots, plums, many berries,
cherries, and nectarines.
Yes, they did clone a fish and a tomato.

By vbean on Tuesday, July 04, 2000 - 01:18 am: Edit

Here is a quote from Chez Panisse's web page; Alice Waters is such a supporter of produce and meats raised in responsible wholesome methods.
I thought that this was appropriate for the fourth of July.
"eating is an agricultural act" with social and ecological consequences that determine the kind of people that we choose to be. (

By W.DeBord on Tuesday, July 04, 2000 - 09:13 am: Edit

I can't dissagree with most of your points vbean, we should be responsible with all of our resources don't sound like a person who has done much gardening.

I'm not an expert but I am far more into gardening than your average backyard grower. You should see my apples this year. The constant rain prevented us from neighboors would never eat one of them unless they had their eyes closed. I wouldn't ever have a potato with-out spraying potato dust! I gave up on growing strawberries because I couldn't win with the bugs etc...etc...etc...

My point being we'd be back to the days where people got scurvy (sp?) with-out insectacides (sp?). Ever store potatos or carrots, do you know how long they last with-out help (NOT LONG!)?

I agree that certain insectasides are extremely harmful, many should have never been approved by the epa! Lets be smarter when it comes to choosing which insectaside are used but the idea of organic produce for the masses is not realistic.

By W.DeBord on Tuesday, July 04, 2000 - 09:41 am: Edit

Let's not forget about the farmers, they are people just like us but I believe they care even more then we ever could. They are the most frugel people in the country!

Most farmers (family farmers) couldn't possible afford to use gratuitous insecticides.

I think most of your worries belong to third world counties who lack laws regulating use of harmful products and over production of their resources. Maybe limit imports? But then they go hungry when the dollars dry up.

Education and more responsible bio-technology are our only hopes...turning back the hands of time won't ever happen.

By Cheftim (Cheftim) on Tuesday, July 04, 2000 - 09:18 pm: Edit

If you take a cutting off a plant, stick it in some potting soil and it takes root you have a clone, an exact genetic copy of the parent plant.

Cloning is a natural way plants reproduce them selves.

The luddites use buz words like "cloning" or "radiation" to frighten.

Look I know a tomato that comes from the L.A. produce market has no flavor compared to one picked red and plump from my garden. But I'm not going to change this by running around yelling the sky is falling. The genie is out of the bottle as far as GM foods go. We need to understand the science behind our arguments. Only then can we effect change.

The idea that there is something wrong with buying Chilean Grapes (strawberries are in full season here in Oxnard CA in February) in season smacks of elitism. Should we forgo all other forms of technology? Stop using tomato paste because it comes from a can? Use only locally grown and milled flour. I could go on and on.

Did you know in Dijon France they don't grow their own mustard. Its imported from Canada. Canada can grow mustard and export it to France for less that Dijon can grow it. Are you going to stop using Dijon mustard?

I would love to have a restaurant were I only used locally produced products, and craft foods, I want to go to the local market and buy what I need for that day deciding my menu for the day as I shop. But who would my clientele be? Only the RICH.

How much more democratic things are now with relatively inexpensive products available from around the world.

By Jonnyboy (Jonnyboy) on Tuesday, July 04, 2000 - 11:45 pm: Edit

Foods have been geneticly altered to some degree for centuries.A great book not necisarily on this topic but it covers alot of this stuff is called "guns,germs and steel.Most of the plants and foods we eat have been breed for years to only give us the best and weed out the weeker plants. Ever seem wild almonds?They are highly toxic the ones we eat are tecnicaly the rejects.Wild corn was almost useless as most of it grew to only 2" and so on.With the food shortage in the world anything that will help crops reach their full potential is okay by me,however some of the stuff is not "restaurant quaility"

By Mikeh (Mikeh) on Wednesday, July 05, 2000 - 12:53 am: Edit

I don't remember if this was from a reliable source, but I read that if America's domestic food supply was converted entirely to organic farming, the yield wouldn't be sufficient to feed all of us.

By vbean on Wednesday, July 05, 2000 - 01:00 am: Edit

Did you know that Grey POUPON has nothing to do with France ( they sold it a lonf time ago). My brother, sister, and I always had our own plots in our back yard. That, and my parents love for growing things is one of the reasons sure that I'm a Chef. My Great, great, great. grandfather was the first white explorer or Lake Superior.I have his dishes and silver.
My grandfather always told me that the US was a nation of farmers, founded by farmers.I believe that he would tell me that is our responsibility to save the earth. I do not buy grapes from Chile. Their pesticide use is extreme.Yes, I would say to you, stop being passive, stop promoting empty 1 crop south american farms. South America does not exsist only to feed the US.

By W.DeBord on Wednesday, July 05, 2000 - 01:01 am: Edit

They alter the plants to handle fungus' and wilts' etc... a genetically altered corn called super breed (pretend name) may only fight one type of the most common wilt leaving it a helpless plant to corn borers, wilt, and ten other possible attacks. They also "breed" the plant for sweetness and how long the sugars remain after picking before they break down.

I understand how nature has a certain balance but engineering a plant to make it less prone to a fungus really doesn't have the trickle down effect on the animal population.

I'm not an expert on "growing animals" but I recall seeing a artical on T.V. about the requirements to label birds as "free range". You may think your doing the right thing by purchasing those animals but they aren't happy little birds that run free outside all day. Either you eat meat or you don't but lets not fool ourselfs into thinking there is responsible wholesome way to over feed and under exercise an animal then kindly butcher them.

By W.DeBord on Wednesday, July 05, 2000 - 01:16 am: Edit

"South America does not exist only to feed the U.S."...please, they don't do anything for the U.S. they do it for themselfs. They don't have an employee shortage going on...they need money to survive. Take away their source of income? That's not an them understand how to grow responsibly.

Were talking about limited resources here. These people don't have a computor and t.v. in every room. Don't work on the farm get a job at the local fortune 500 company, yeh right. Exploiting them? I think not.

By vbean on Wednesday, July 05, 2000 - 01:41 am: Edit

We are the people that told them they needed coca cola and a TV in every home. We gave them the fucking dream. United fruit bought up farms to giv e the US cheap bananas etc... We sold them the crap that we did not want. The drugs that were out of date, the pesticides that were no longer OK to use. South America has been our supermarket. We also sold people the belief that come to the US and you will make it with open arms. Why is it that modern day immigrants are so scorned? Does time make you better?

By Cheftim (Cheftim) on Wednesday, July 05, 2000 - 01:53 am: Edit

Oh my goodness GREY POUPON mustard isn't from France. MY goodness that creates a whole new paradigm for me and I am completely won over to your side. I mean that settles it, if anyone else could top that point I just don't know how.

Well!! The is the first time I have ever seen that particular word used anywhere in this forum. Really I think the use of little smily and frowny faces would be better. ;) or :o or
=:{)> That one is a chef with a gotee

You Know I have to laugh when ever I hear that "American Culture is Poison" rant. Usually from the French but also from the Canadians. Hey if is so bad don't by Coke and don't buy your hamburgers from McDonalds. It is that simple.

By vbean on Wednesday, July 05, 2000 - 02:03 am: Edit

You are being wimpy. Give people what you believe to be right. Explain to them that if they want strawberries- they better get married in June or July. Tell people "no". Give them better choices.
What, I'm supposed to have no clue of botany?
Oh yah, I'm just the blond California airhead.
You are forgeting sometning about primitive plant genetics; almost no people around. Now, we have ALOT of people.
South America? Stop th US needing tomatoes year round and fruit. We are responsible for screwing up south america (like it was ours to use). I f we learned to eat things in season then other countries would not have such screwed up economies catering to the US.

By vbean on Wednesday, July 05, 2000 - 02:19 am: Edit

I don't drink coke and I don't eat at MCDonalds. It has no value to me. My dad has never eaten at McDonalds,my mom ate there once- she is 70.
A burger does not equal McDonalds. I suppose you need a microwave too.
I never said anything about not wanting to be American. I love who I am. I practice what I preach. My employees are Jamacian, Guatamalan, Mexican, American, El Salvadorean, Hawaiian.
Happy fourth of July!

By momoreg on Wednesday, July 05, 2000 - 06:42 am: Edit

And I suppose you never eat packaged foods of any kind, because most of them are probably not produced in your region.

By W.DeBord on Wednesday, July 05, 2000 - 09:13 am: Edit

You really think we screwed up their economies? With-out illegal drugs and legal produce would they have an economy?

"Primitive plant genetics; almost no people around" what is your point? The primitive plants couldn't produce enough to feed more than the cave men and a few dinasours. Are you saying we have too many people? You better buy more produce and illegal drugs because some of these poor countries will never reach the point where they have disposible income to buy condoms control their over population.

Yeh, call the pope and tell him he's instagating the birth of too many people and South America can't grow anymore produce because it's a waste to spend money on energy to fly the food out of the country:)

Or start a boycot list of companies who knowingly sell bad products to third world countries. Let those companies hurt fiancally, putting yourself out of business by not selling strawberries in December is dumb!

By Ramodeo (Ramodeo) on Wednesday, July 05, 2000 - 08:30 pm: Edit

Phew...! I just read this whole thread at once. Don't really want to get hit by any flying McDonalds burgers or organic tomatoes, but I'd like to make a small point.

As has been stated, genetic modification of food plants has been going on for thousands of years, through the human selection and breeding of plants with favorable characteristics. Then there is the other kind of genetic modification, where single desirable genes are moved from some source (not always a plant?) to food plants by humans. This is the type of genetic modofication that is really dangerous and needs debate.

The difference between these two is that in the first example, the genetic makeup of the new plant has still been determined by mother nature. The humans choose what they like from mother nature, and try to make more of it. In the second example, the genetic makeup of the new plant is determined by humans, who, while pretty intelligent, do not have the millions and millions of years of experience that nature does. We have not come anywhere near close to really understanding the natural world, and it's a mistake to think that we do.

There are consequences to both types of modification. The consequences of natural selection are a whole lot more likely to fit in with the natural world than the consequences of direct human interferance in the genetic code.

By Cheftim (Cheftim) on Thursday, July 06, 2000 - 01:10 pm: Edit

Your right we are talking about to Kinds of Genetic Modification. You wrong about the consequences. Most natural Genetic Modifications have no effect and are unnoticed or are dead ends. Those that are truly successful take over the world.

You talk as if Nature is guiding something. Its random chance. A billion billion rolls of the dice. What we call NATURE is really only the rule maker of this cosmic tabogon ride we are on.

I am still not clear on why genetic Modification of plants and animals is wrong.

Any fool could see the dangers but there is danger in every technology. What makes us human if the fact that we modify our environment with tools.

When fire was discovered there were two side of the debate one side said fire was dangerous because it was hot and if it got out of control it could kill people and the other side said yes that was true but it also made certain foods easier to eat and is was warm at night and it kept the animals away at night.

Don't be afraid Its only fire.

By Ramodeo (Ramodeo) on Thursday, July 06, 2000 - 06:35 pm: Edit

Cheftim, I do talk as if nature is guiding something, because I happen to believe that, in a way. I cannot say if there is really a master plan behind it all, although I know many believe there is, and many believe there is not.

What "nature" is, is a system that has evolved over billions of years. It is an incredibly complex system that we do not fully understand, and I am certainly no expert at describing how it works.

You are right that most naturally occuring genetic mutations go unnoticed or are dead ends. That's exactly my point. Nature puts an end to them if they are not going to fit in with the system.

When people start moving genes around, the same thing is going to happen. These human-modified plants will be processed into the natural system, for better or worse. It's my opinion (and I'd be interested to hear arguments on the other side) that the modifications made by humans are very unlikely to fit in to the natural world easily. Why? Because most of the modifications are made to go against the natural world, distorting it to the advantage of those who wish to make money from it, or who are trying to feed populations that the earth is not ready to support.

What I believe will happen, (and I know there are examples to support this, but I don't have the time to look them up) is that these human modified plants will do what the humans want them to do, but they will also cause changes in the natural system that no one expects, like falling dominos, moving throughout the plant and animal kingdoms. The fact that these human modifications are happening at a rate exponentially faster than the type of natural selection/plant breeding that has occured in the past will compound the problem. There are likely to be consequences that get out of control and the effects will be felt by the human community in the form of environmental changes that will cause suffering.

That said, I'd also like to respond to your other points. I never said genetic modification was wrong. I said it was dangerous. Even you agreed with that. And I completely agree with your fire analogy. What I think people are worried about is that we are moving ahead on this without enough knowledge or experimentation in regards to consequences. It certainly can have benefits, and we gotta do something different if we're going to continue to increase our population and use up the earth's resources at the current rate.

As for your final comment, try telling that to the thousands who lost their homes in Los Alamos.

I have faith in human intelligence to be able to solve the problems facing us, and I think this kind of discussion can only help.

By Cheftim (Cheftim) on Thursday, July 06, 2000 - 10:54 pm: Edit


For the sake of the argument I will concede all your points about Genetic Modification by humans.
You do say that there is some possibility of benefit in the use of this new technology.

Who should be in charge. Us with our gut feelings, common knowledge and intuition? Or the scientist actually working with technology? Or someone else?

My argument is to not let hysteria rule. Facts should be the guide and not effete sophism.

Let me say it again:
We need to understand the science behind our arguments. Only then can we effect change.

By Ramodeo (Ramodeo) on Friday, July 07, 2000 - 10:42 pm: Edit

I can tell you who shouldn't be in charge - those who stand to profit from it.

The capitalist drive has provided us with many of our most productive innovations, but this is too important to not have more segments of society involved. Capitalists, scientists, philosophers, farmers, academics... and yes - chefs! all need to be part of the process.

Yes, facts should guide us. And intuition and common knowledge. We need to move forward carefully and keep questioning each new "advance" until we fully understand it's consequences in all areas.

There is more than the possibility of benefit from this technology - it's been proven to provide benefits, and the benefits are quick to make themselves known. The choice is whether the benefits outweigh the dangers, which often take lots longer to show up.

Is there anybody reading this who can help us all understand the science behind these issues? I'd love to learn more!

By vbean on Saturday, July 08, 2000 - 03:10 am: Edit

Ramadeo, thank you for your eloquence on this subject. Gow to, you will find links on this subject.
I believe that someone who thinks that the people of South America only do things for themselves needs to study a little history. Read about United Fruit. Understand who is growing AND BUYING the drugs.
I will restate that buying strawberries in January is wrong. It is very important to cook with the seasons. It is not "bad for business" but bad for the earth (unless you live in the Southern Hemisphere).
It's funny, but I feel like you (many of you) have given up. I am not sure if this is to justify
the products you use or what you are selling. No one is going to convince me that fast food is a good thing (no, it is not cheaper, and it is very wasteful).
I believe that organic farmers deserve our respect. We have been receiving the first of our heirloom tomatoes- they are beautiful. We don't use fresh unless they are in season.

By vbean on Saturday, July 08, 2000 - 04:08 am: Edit

Cheftim, the statement that"most natural modifications are unnoticed or dead ends". You are the type of person that scientists are wary of.DNA is still very mysterious. Are you talking about a field in Nebraska or a burned out region of the Amazon basin? (to provide the world with more cheap McDonalds burgers). The ozone layer keeps getting bigger- why should we care, it's not about business.
I really believe in the seed banks (and yes, I have had organic gardens for my entire life). I have sat there and picked slugs and snails off. In the past ten years I have tasted amazing tomatoes- they were like nothing I ever knew.Green, purple, sunset,yellow, pepper shaped, orange, black. These are the delights from the past (and they taste so good!)

By VBEAN on Saturday, July 08, 2000 - 04:26 am: Edit

I use fresh local products in season. I hire alot of people that are from South America. My employees taste and understand the difference between organic and (sprayed) produce.This is what they buy for their children. Organic has insects but it tastes better. The sprayed (especially the berries) have no insects and take longer to mold. They taste not like a berry. They look very ripe and are crunchy and taste of a watery taste.
Maybe not only humans should have a choice about modifying our world. WE DON'T OWN IT!

By VBEAN on Saturday, July 08, 2000 - 04:28 am: Edit

I use fresh local products in season. I hire alot of people that are from South America. My employees taste and understand the difference between organic and (sprayed) produce.This is what they buy for their children (the organic). Organic has insects but it tastes better. The sprayed (especially the berries) have no insects and take longer to mold. They taste not like a berry. They look very ripe and are crunchy and taste of a watery taste.
Maybe not only humans should have a choice about modifying our world. WE DON'T OWN IT!

By Mikeh (Mikeh) on Saturday, July 08, 2000 - 10:13 am: Edit

I ate dinner at Chez Panisse on Thursday and their use of locally grown and perfectly ripe produce made the meal very memorable. All of the produce was some of the best I've ever tasted. I didn't even know that frisee could be sweet instead of bitter with a softer texture instead of scratchy like the stuff in the supermarket. I imagine it also cost more to purchase than the stuff at Safeway.

I was in 7-eleven yesterday and I took a glance at their wine section. Four different brands all of which came from Ernest & Julio Gallo -- I know this because they all said Modesto, CA, and there is only one winery in Modesto, with fermentation tanks that are bigger than an oil refineries. I'm not sure how much you guys know about wine, but the extremely deep top soil and other perfect growing conditions for grape growing in the central valley of California yield 20+ tons of grapes per acre which makes very poor quality but cheap wine. Good wines have yield limits of 3 to 5 tons/acre.

I'm not much of a gardener, but I wonder if the same holds true with produce and the reason why my homegrown tomatoes taste so good is because I do such a poor job of growing them that the plant only produce a handful of tomatoes.

By Cheftim (Cheftim) on Saturday, July 08, 2000 - 10:45 am: Edit

I saw a great report last night on TV. It told how organic spring mix was twice as likely to be contaminated with Ecoli bacteria. Because under treated cow manurer is used as fertilizer.

It also pointed out the if we were to completely convert to organic agriculture we would have to farm 1/2 of the land not under ice.

My favorite part was the shots of consumers telling how much healthier they feel after eating organic vegetables because they knew that organic vegetables had more vitamins and nutrients. (common knowledge and gut feelings) Then they cut to the representative of the organic growers who could only admit that organic vegetables were just as healthful as non organic.

Another point that was made, organic and non organic vegetables were tested for pesticides and zero pesticides were found in either group.

If you add up the data, organics are a sham at best or more dangerous at worst.

By Ramodeo (Ramodeo) on Saturday, July 08, 2000 - 04:56 pm: Edit

vbean - what do you mean by "given up"? I haven't given up on anything. I agree woth alot of your ideas on eating locally and seasonally. My husband and I (we worked together at a restaurant until a couple weeks ago, when I left cuz we're opening our own place soon) have always purchased produce from a local organic farmer during our growing season. We cutback drastically on what we purchaser from the foodservice suppliers. We start with asparagus May, and go til November with the hard squashes. All my fruit desserts in the summer are local peaches, raspberries, strawberries, blueberries, etc. The menus are planned around what is available. He grows what we ask for and is 4 or 5 years into the organic certification process. But we live in Michigan. It's hard to run a viable Italian restaurant here from November to May if the only local produce available is stored root vegetables, hard squashes, stored apples and cabbages. Should we shut down for the winter? That wouldn't be too good for the economy around here...

You spoke of California's organic certification. Do you live there? I imagine it might be easier for you to accomplish your objectives there.

Also, what other earthly being would be able to express their choice about modifying our world? We are the ones with the intelectual ability to do it, so we are charged with doing it responsibly.

By Cheftim (Cheftim) on Sunday, July 09, 2000 - 04:33 pm: Edit

I don't know how I forgot about this. There is and Article written by a chef about Genetically Modified food in the newsletter section of my ACF Chapter.

The article is called

The Ethical Issues of Genetically Engineered Foods by Colin P. Marsh, CEC.

By W.DeBord on Sunday, July 09, 2000 - 05:22 pm: Edit

Didn't anyone else see the article on Friday night (either dateline or 20/20) about which was better for you and the enviroment, reg. or organic produce?

Top expert (I don't know his title)disapproves of organics from every angle, it was less safe and worse for the earth.

By Yankee on Tuesday, July 11, 2000 - 01:10 pm: Edit

I saw it when it originally aired a few months back on 20/20, and then again last week.

LOL out all those ninnies who pay through the nose for the organic stuff.

By vbean on Thursday, July 20, 2000 - 03:12 am: Edit

Hello again, How do you feel about the planet that you live on? Justify your crap and eat it too! I'm glad that TV should be so informative because they are not biased at all!
One day, when you are standing in your desolete,dusty field, ask whose ecosystem that you are in. Most likely by then the land will no longer be viable.
Next time you order your burger, give a prayer for the specices who is dieing,(meaning animal and insect life in S Amercia) they deserve that. The medical problems that will follow-well did you not expect that?

By vbean on Thursday, July 20, 2000 - 03:35 am: Edit

Ramadeo, I do believe that we are caretakers of the earth. I am sorry, I have been very busy, or I would have responded sooner. Winter is very difficult in restaurants. I do believe that we have to (in the future) rely more on preserving.
I am hoping for people that think before they buy (with a conscience). Instant made, instant cold, no fat, longer lasting, do they need this? etc...
Many people are angry with California right now because we are hindering agro-business. To me it is pretty easy, destroy the soil, nothing to eat.

By vbean on Thursday, July 20, 2000 - 04:07 am: Edit

Cheftim, Remind me to never eat in your restaurant. Why aren't you in some kind of sales? You do not seem to have any passion about food.
You seem to lack a connection with what you are doing.
Do you eat at MC Donalds and then go to work and make some kind of architectural out of season thing? You seem like a products person "get the product to do the job! this is the year 2000"

By Cheftim (Cheftim) on Thursday, July 20, 2000 - 07:20 pm: Edit


I've been called worse by better.

I have looked over your posts and you have expressed nothing but the mindless sloganeering, and propaganda put forth by the Earthfirsters and Luddites.

All your suppositions are based on questionable science.

Can you address these issues.

What are the specific dangers of the genetically engineered corn being used by Kellogs for their corn flakes?

Are organic vegetables more healthful than non-organic vegetables? Why?

If the whole world turned to organic methods what would the cost be?
In terms of:
1. Money.
2. Human Life.

By Mofo1 (Mofo1) on Thursday, July 20, 2000 - 11:03 pm: Edit

Bravo ChefTim! Foe some reason, VBeans argument reminds me of the type of person who doesn't need air-conditioning because "the pioneers didn't have it." The pioneers were old at thirty. I bet their tomatoes sucked too. :)

By Yankee on Friday, July 21, 2000 - 01:18 pm: Edit

Vbean, it seems as though you are really struggling to structure some type of position on several issues here. Focus, Vbean, f-o-c-u-s! Why can't you simply make a point about specific issue instead of ranting and making silly accusations about people you have never met?

I lived in Berkeley for five years. I am all to familiar with "Think Globally, Act Locally" mentality. I think a lot of important issues come to light because of socially conscious and active people (hello, Nike). Thing is, too many of these people are just ranting idiots who seek media attention.

Positive change is always possible. But, ranting and insulting people only makes you look like just another blabbering, organic ninny on the evening news. We have much to learn from each other.

By vbean on Saturday, July 22, 2000 - 01:46 am: Edit

O.K., perhaps I am very tired at the end of my day, I am not an organic ninny. I work with alot of organic farmers. Their job is very difficult. Many of them have degrees in soil science. Instead of planting many acres of one crop they mix them together alot (certain plants help each other- insects like one and not another.
I promote cooking with the seasons. I also believe that organic food TASTES better and is better for the planet.

By vbean on Saturday, July 22, 2000 - 01:59 am: Edit

You are obviously a bitter man. What article are you reading ? Kellogs corn flakes? I have no clue. Are organic items healthier for the body? No. For the earth? Yes.
Who is making the money? Agrobusiness. Small farms die and towns too. The land gets burdened on one crop.When people insist on eating things out of season (that have been modified to travel and last longer). It hurts the local economy because it becomes one crop. (look at what pineapple and sugarcane did to Hawaii)

By vbean on Saturday, July 22, 2000 - 02:13 am: Edit

Cheftim, This Earthfirst and luddite business (which you have called me from the beginning). Have you ever heard of a difference of opinion?
Why should I answer your quiz? Will you feel bigger when I give you different results?
Oh yes, I care about trees (about the Earthfirst comment). You should too if you want to breathe. The luddite comment? I'm fine with that. I'll call you a sophist. I have never before met a Chef that did not care about the land.
All the media blitz (your notes), it is in our power to educate people to grow things responsibly.

By vbean on Saturday, July 22, 2000 - 02:27 am: Edit

About air conditioning. Have you heard of the huge and growing larger hole in the ozone layer? Global Warming? Learn to live in your chosen enviornment. To me it is so strange that people want to be at a constant temperature. They want to eat everthing in season everyday. They want it cheap, they want it fast.
Give me strawberries that will last for a month. Give me tomatoes in January.
Poor people are not eating this food. They are forgetting how to cook, as they rush to their third job.

By Cheftim (Cheftim) on Saturday, July 22, 2000 - 11:17 am: Edit

The weight of your arguments have convinced me.
I am no longer preparing anything that isn't grown organicly or raised in an ethical manner.

I have created seasonal menus, for my customers to choose from.

The only problem is, no one wants to book a party because of my prices. Oh we did almost get a booking from the Green Party and P.E.T.A., but they wanted us to do it at cost.

I have had to lay of all my help, thankfully they were able to get jobs at my competition because their business increased.

Oh yes, we are being sued by a family who's grandmother died of heat exhaustion at our last reception. I told them about the ozone problem, and had the air conditioning units rip out. I suggested they wear clothes more suitable for the weather. They were wearing tuxedos and long dresses in 100 degree heat. The bride had on an extremely beautiful long sleeve dress. She was sweating like a pig.

The heating units are scheduled for removal tomorrow. I have plan to open the doors from the kitchen in the winter so some of the waste heat from the kitchen will heat he ballroom.

We have also cancelled any groups after the sun goes down because it gets so dark in the conference rooms even with the doors open. Our biggest business group really gave us a rash but I said "Hey is night time learn to live with your environment"

There no work an I'm going broke but I content because I'm saving the world.

So you see vbean is not that I am bitter just extremely cynical.

By Yankee on Saturday, July 22, 2000 - 12:48 pm: Edit

LOL, Chef Tim. Not cynical, just a realist. Sardonic, maybe. Not bitter.

An MS in soil science does not make you a great farmer, neither does a PHD make you smarter than the average bear.

Ozone? So, I guess you don't own a car, Vbean? Global warming? How do your farmers plow and ship their product to market? An Ox? Won't that upset the PETA folks? Got leather shoes? Computers don't recycle very well...

No AC? That's funny.

Organic tastes better than non-organic. Doubt it. Blind test, you could not tell. Organic or not, any produce that's grown for quality will taste better than that grown for volume. Only yuppies and organics with more money than brains pay $12 a pound for tomatoes. I support the work of organic farmers, I just can't afford it.

Yes, the organic growing model works in a few instances (Chez Panisse), but for industrial farming, the methods won't work now. Perhaps in the future they will.

By Ramodeo (Ramodeo) on Sunday, July 23, 2000 - 08:39 pm: Edit

vbean - where do you live? Please give us some clear practical examples of how you deal with the day to day needs of running a restaurant within your principles - I'm really curious. What are your menus like? What kinds of fresh, organic produce can you get locally during different seasons? Do you do banquets/catering? If so, how do you develop those menus? Do you operate without air conditioning?

You sound like someone who cares alot - maybe if you shared some real information some of us might be able to learn something new. Now THAT would be a way to really affect change in your professional community.

By Panini (Panini) on Sunday, July 23, 2000 - 10:38 pm: Edit

I have refrained from entering this thread until now. I too, would like some practical and rational ideas to change the way I do things now.
I currently have no organic options to choose from from my perveyors. The local produce is terrible due to the weather conditions. HOT! HOT!NO WATER!.103 everyday, you can twist an ankle in the cracks in my lawn.
The organic produce available is retail only and that is shipped in, seems to defeat the purpose? Any ideas.

By vbean on Monday, July 24, 2000 - 04:49 am: Edit

O.K, so I am a freak. That is O.K w/ ME.
The only time I have worked in an air conditioned enviorment was at the Ritz. I am not a caricature. I do the best that I can do. Yes, I do drive a car- that does not stop me from trying to change things. I am not the picture of the millitant leftist.
When I first started cooking in Hawaii there was nothing to cook with except pineapples and sugarcane. Now, pineeapple and sugarcane have moved to other places. Before, there were no fresh herbs. It is so beautiful to see the growth of different produce that it is happening in Hawaii. The land and water will take a long time to clean up. (there are parts of Oahu where pineapple and sugarcane were heavily farmed- children are not encouraged to drink the water)

By vbean on Monday, July 24, 2000 - 05:21 am: Edit

Who pays $12 a pound for tomatoes? Right now we are getting 40 different variety of heirloom, in the store they are 45 cents a pound. At the farmers market $20 a case.
I am using beautiful organic peaches. There is not an insect spot on them. I work in San Francisco, I am very fortunate to have a huge variety of organic produce to work with.
This did not always exist here. The certification process in California is very strict. It takes a very long time to leech pesticides from the soil.
The most disturbing item that I have been reading about alot lately is hormone use in milk cows.
Girls are menstruating at an alarming much younger rate. As estrogen is easily passed between cow milk and humans, this is not reaaly surprising.Girls are now 8, 9, 10 - a difference of almost 5 years (in the past twenty)
Remember, most chickens are also feed alot of estrogen. This is not done in France, (actually, France has very strict guidelines in food)

By vbean on Monday, July 24, 2000 - 05:42 am: Edit

Ramadeo, I am sorry, I never answered you.
Right now , where I work in California I can get everything I need seasonally and organically (let's say 85% during the year).The rest of the time I use transitional produce (the soil is not yet clean of pesticides) Yes, I do alot of banquets. I work with four restaurants, we do over $16 million a year. Farmers and purveyors come to me and we talk about what is good and happening. I say yes alot more then I used to.
I have really only briefly worked in air conditioning (and I lived for a very long time in Hawaii). All my pastry experience in Hawaii is without air-conditioning, it made me very resourceful.

By vbean on Monday, July 24, 2000 - 06:01 am: Edit

Panini, I was wondering when you would join this.
From reading alot of the threads, you seem like a calm in the flour storm.
Houses are cheaper where where you live. That is very nice (it is tres cher here!). Perhaps though what we are paying for here is the availibility of everything.
The only thing I can suggest is to talk to your purveyors. Tell them no (I do know that it is hard to do with out). Call the farmers and make chatty and friendly suggestions. Go visit the farms. Farmers like knowing where their hard work is going. Finally, maybe you should adjust your menus more to suit the hot months. Anticipation of items can be a big seller!

By Cheftim (Cheftim) on Friday, July 28, 2000 - 11:08 am: Edit

There is a good article in the latest time magazine (july 31) on the subject of transgenetic foods.

By vbean on Sunday, July 30, 2000 - 04:27 am: Edit

It is so funny, I thought that I would get much more support here.
There are alot more strawberries, peaches ,nectarines, plums, figs, honeydews, sharilyns, cantalopes, casabas, pineapples,mangoes, lichees, and papayas, apples, tomotoes, carrots, frisee, arugula, onioions, watercress, boysenberries, raspberries, blackberries that you have never tasted. That is your choice.
They are being grown without pesticides. Many of these items taste so much better ( carrots , berries, broccoli, cawliflower, arugula, frisee, strawberries (and all berries).

By vbean on Sunday, July 30, 2000 - 05:27 am: Edit

Cheftim, About your McDonalds burger. The Brazilian legislature is voting on wheather to raze 160000 acres of the rainforest. This affects the climate, the air we breathe, and the longetivity of our world.
Raiforests are so impotant to everyone's world. Without them we don't breathe.
There are more unstudied plants, animals, and insects that will be destroyed when the demolitioion of the life of a rainforest is alloweed by poeple who insist on eating cheap, ireverant food.
Get food to be local and part of your lives.


By Panini (Panini) on Sunday, July 30, 2000 - 02:01 pm: Edit

There are not local farmers here. There is a local farmers market that brings in everything. I was just in California and was schocked to see the amount of farms. What a great thing. Here we grow beans, cotton and rocks. Our berry season is a couple of weeks long and the good stock gets shipped. I was at Legoland with my son and we stopped at every fruit stand we passed, actually picked our own strawberries at an organic farm.You are in a special place. I have asked the chefs association for a list of organic local farmers, let's see what happens.

By RDB on Sunday, July 30, 2000 - 03:21 pm: Edit

I agree with panini, here in Texas the produce grown in the valley is bought up before it is even grown,shiped east then shipped back to us. seasonal fruits have sucked for the past few of years the heat,lack of rain have taken it's toll. the few local ( organic farmers ) have had such a hard time,many have gone bankrupt.A&M has been working on ways to alter produce so that it can withstand the texas climate.I would prefer organic produce but at this time it is not avilable at a cost my customers will pay.I have toured an experimental fruit station in Arkansas and was amazed at what they did, mostly with grapes and fruit trees it was some of the best produce I had ever eaten! on the other hand alot of the altered produce ie. tomatoes have no flavor,bad texture, and no color I guess you have to take the good with the bad, unless you have the land to grow your own stuff. anyway thats my two cents worth. Richard

By Ramodeo (Ramodeo) on Monday, July 31, 2000 - 12:32 am: Edit

vbean - I think it would help if you were a little more logical in your arguments. Your fantastic (and the root word here is fantasy...) list of produce means nothing to most of us who have posted in this thread. How exactly do I get to taste a fresh, local, organic MANGO in Michigan???? or lichees???? Really - what did that post mean? I would love to be able to buy fresh local organic produce year round, but for most of us it is IMPOSSIBLE! Why don't you address that argument? Take yourself out of your little piece of organic heaven and put youself in a small cafe in the upper midwest in February and tell me what your menu would read. I'd really like to know.

What I - and others, I think, are trying to say is that you are spouting alot of idealistic rhetoric expecting to be praised and supported, but you haven't given us much information we can use to make the changes you would like to see.

You talk about huge issues, but only from your own narrow viewpoint. If we all eat locally only, how do we feed the giant cities? Can you feed NYC with the farmland that is within the definition of local? I doubt it. New York - heck, what about Bombay or Beijing, or better yet, Tokyo????

I'm sorry to sound harsh, but i just have very little patience for people who can't make more of an effort to look at the WHOLE issue.

By vbean on Thursday, August 03, 2000 - 04:15 am: Edit

I am not eating mango and lychee in San Francisco.
I am only using what is available here (and that is alot).
I do not know the midwest. I can only say that I only use what is in season locally.
I am not expecting to be praised and supported. I am doing the best that I can. I bake because I am driven to.
In winter, in February, I suppose I would cook the same style that we were cooking in Belgium. In season, root vegetables, game birds, venison, cabbage, mushrooms (or dried), brussel sprouts, hard squashes.
For dessert, caramel, pears, squash, chocolate, coffee, apples, chestnuts, etc...
I have always thought that trying to do your best at your small part of the whole was helping.
Don't you think that is why alot of people do nothing is because they are thinking of ways that it can't help? I will not let what is being done in Bombay or Bejing paralyze me. I don't have time to dissect the world.

By vbean on Thursday, August 03, 2000 - 04:30 am: Edit

My list was just what was at the market in season and available in SF at this time.Not Fantasy.

By Yankee on Thursday, August 03, 2000 - 12:09 pm: Edit

I'll make the assumption that English is not your first language. Please, "alot" is not a word. Try using "a lot" instead.

I'll also make the assumption that your menu list was 100% organic, even the game bird, chocolate, coffee and chestnuts. Please let us all know then, what your food cost is?

As for Bejing, MFN status aside, the Chinese impose the death penalty on 2-3 people per day for crimes as minor as theft. I find that quite paralyzing.

Stop ranting at these rest of us for not being as PC as yourself. Perhaps if you did take a moment to "dissect the world," you might learn something beyond your own petty issues.

"But Bozz, vhat about ze fan-ta-sy?"

By Cheftim (Cheftim) on Thursday, August 03, 2000 - 03:37 pm: Edit

Irregardless of any disagreement I may have with vebean I sincerely applaud the statement;

"I have always thought that trying to do your best at your small part of the whole was helping."

I whole heartily agree that in any endeavor we may undertake, we should "think globally and work localy"

By Panini (Panini) on Thursday, August 03, 2000 - 06:36 pm: Edit

Your already in need of another vacation.

By Yankee on Friday, August 04, 2000 - 04:05 am: Edit

Got that right.

Mercury is in retrograde, and it flips out us water signs.

We did have a nice dinner at Chez Panisse tonight, if that will put this thread back on track.

I was hoping for an intermezzo of oraganic rocks from Texas, but we got squid instead (free range, of course).

"Da plane. Bozz, Bozz. Da Plane."

Like I said, Mercury is in retrograde...


By RDB on Saturday, August 05, 2000 - 12:41 am: Edit


By vbean on Monday, August 07, 2000 - 04:20 am: Edit

HMMMM, Yankee, I would assume that you are very politically active. I don't always spell that well. Actually, I do have a degree (BA) in Political Science from UC Berkeley
Our food cost is a little up this month, 28.5%.
Banquets are a little slow this month. Usually we run about 27.4%.
If you control your banquets you can use just about anything that you want to use, of course packaged and pre-processesed cost more.
Yankee, (as your name suggests) what are you doing about the injustice?
I am not stupid or uneducated. I am very good at my job.

By vbean on Monday, August 07, 2000 - 05:39 am: Edit

I must add, that, thank's for talking with me guys!
We are eating right now about 30 types of tomatoes(as a tomato lover, I am happy!).
As a Pastry Chef, I am using, blueberries, blackberries, raspberries, golden raspberries, red currants, peaches, nectarines, watermelon, galia melon, white nectarines, boysenberries, and frais du bois. They are all organic and on the menu at this time.
Yankee, how is your food cost?

By vbean on Monday, August 07, 2000 - 05:56 am: Edit

Oh, yah, it is organic not oraganic.
So, are you doing anything about China? I myself have been in many protests. I remember the devastation I FELT after Tiannamen Square. I was in France at the time.
What I meant was that all these world issues will not stop me from trying to make possitive change. I will do it as I can.

By vbean on Monday, August 07, 2000 - 06:21 am: Edit

On more thing.
Taste test:
Berries- the best
carrots- huge difference
broccoli and cauliflower- way better
greens, many varieties- ahuge difference
peppers- much sweeter, and considering that they are the most heavily sprayed crop in addition to strawberries (up to 15 different insecticides used), much better to buy organic.

By RDB on Monday, August 07, 2000 - 07:25 pm: Edit

I may not agree with you on all points, but when your right your right. I don't know if it's the weather or what they do to produce these days but the quality has suffered. Fruits &veggie's just don't have the taste they had when I was growing up,my family had a 5,000 acre ranch/farm and what we grew then was far better than what I can get today!!! Which opens a new can of worms,genetically altered beef ?

By Yankee on Tuesday, August 08, 2000 - 02:11 pm: Edit

Vbean, I mentioned earlier that I support the work of organic farmers. No argument there. What I find silly are the people who pay through the nose for this stuff, but have no idea what they are buying. They buy it only because "it's organic," not because it's a great piece of produce.

I also take issue with the way in which you attack people for not being as PC as yourself. Whatever. Get over it. I feel little need to justify myself to you.

Also, as a fellow Arts and Sciences Cal grad, I find it very disheartening that you are unable to formulate and defend -- with any clarity -- your positions. Are all the exams scan-tron multiple choice now? What happened to blue books?

Perhaps you should have spent more time in class, rather than posing as some organic do-gooder in Sproul Plaza.

By raine on Tuesday, August 08, 2000 - 08:25 pm: Edit

Okay, someone cover me, I'm going in!!

Is it true that they are using radiation treatment on meat?

running for cover, before they start throwing knives at each other :p

By RDB on Tuesday, August 08, 2000 - 08:56 pm: Edit

since I brought up genetically altered beef in my last post,I'll stir a little more. what about " electro tender, aged beef" the process involves shocking the hanging beef to jump start the ageing process(no pun intended)It is a stange thing to see sparks comming from a processed carcus

By Cheftim (Cheftim) on Tuesday, August 08, 2000 - 11:42 pm: Edit

WARNING! WARNING! WARNING! Will Robinson There is a RADIATION source ahead.

You know I treated some chocolate with radiation just today.


Radiation is one of those buzz words people throw around as if radiation is a thing.

The heat we receive from the sun is radiation. The radio waves that our radios and (not so much any more now that we have cable) our TVs receive is a form of radiation.

What kind of radiation? From plutonium, Beta particles, xrays, gamma particles, ultra violet light?

Different for forms of radiation have been tried for treating meat. Never any form that would leave the product (get ready) RADIOACTIVE.

I recently read an article about products being passed through an electron stream. Another system is using, oh my goodness, HEAT.

If you think about it most of the milk in the United States is treated with radiation. Its called pasteurization.

There are draw backs to Irradiation, it denatures amino acids and proteins. JUST LIKE COOKING DOES.

And while I'm here I have a confession to make. I'm am a terrible speller. If I didn't have a spell check on my text editor I would have a problem.

By vbean on Wednesday, August 09, 2000 - 03:05 am: Edit

Hello, I came back. I wanted to share with you some news hot off the wires.
"ABC admitted yesterday that a 20/20 report by John Stossel questioning the safety of organic produce was wrong and that the reporter would apoligize on the air Friday for his mistake>. The report, first aired in February and repeated last month," suprisingly found no pesticide residue on the conventional or the organic".
Hmmm..., funny thing, they lied. ABC, in its statement, confirmed that pesticide tests on produce had never been done.
ABC said Stossel was relying on inacurate information that had been provided to him by a staff member.

By vbean on Wednesday, August 09, 2000 - 03:22 am: Edit

Maybe, now, I won't seem quite as crazy.
There are certain groups asking him to resign.
TV news is glamour and sesationalism.
Who owns, TV, paper, tobacco, food, magazines, candy, movies, alcohol.
A very few companies control everyday life in America.

By vbean on Wednesday, August 09, 2000 - 04:51 am: Edit

I never had time to "hang out in Sproul". I was always working. I put myself through college, and I worked full time while I was in school.
I still can't do Birkenstocks, the smell of Patchouli oil can almost kill me.
As my Major was primarily history, all my exams were blue book.I graduated in 1983.
I give no apologies for fighting for our agriculture.I do not care if I am PC or not.
Are YOU telling me that you write well?
Get a clue.

By vbean on Wednesday, August 09, 2000 - 04:51 am: Edit

I never had time to "hang out in Sproul". I was always working. I put myself through college, and I worked full time while I was in school.
I still can't do Birkenstocks, the smell of Patchouli oil can almost kill me.
As my Major was primarily history, all my exams were blue book.I graduated in 1983.
I give no apologies for fighting for our agriculture.I do not care if I am PC or not.
Are YOU telling me that you write well?
Get a clue.

By vbean on Wednesday, August 09, 2000 - 05:33 am: Edit

Why does organic produce cost more?
Because it costs more to produce; it takes much more skill and knowledge.Cleaning your land for seven years to get certified is not easy. Cerified Organic in California means that the soil and produce is clean for 7 years. I believe that the farmer should get 10 more cents a pound.
Why is there such a huge campaign against organic produce?
The monies made by chemical companies and agrobusiness are huge. These companies are also owned by and are in control of many businesses in the US.
Farming is very hard to begin with.

By W.DeBord on Wednesday, August 09, 2000 - 07:51 am: Edit

I don't believe anyone is against organic produce at all! Most of us can see thru the taste issue because there is none.


Please vbean I grow my own veg.s and apples and your wrong on several items. There is a difference between "farm stand"/fresh from the growers taste and grocery store produce. That's because items are left of the vine to ripen reaching their full flavor. Also the fresher picked veg. has less h2o evaporation (making it firmer) and less of the natural sugars have broken down.

In the midwest we still haven't gotten our first tomatos of this season. Although all the people are buying them at the local farm stands (along with melons and other way off from harvesting items) and licking their lips echoing your believes about how good farm fresh is. HA!

By W.DeBord on Wednesday, August 09, 2000 - 08:05 am: Edit

vbean you sound so nieve....try living outside of CA and see what eating local organic produce constists of!

If that's not possible, learn how to grow your own veg. in the same plot of land year after year. Learn about your issues first hand.

By raine on Wednesday, August 09, 2000 - 09:22 am: Edit

Okay, I see your point about RADIATION. In all truth, it does not matter. Unless your willing to slaughter your own animals, you will have to accept whatever the USDA approves. Even if it is, zapped with gamma rays, shot up with horomones, injected with vaccines, or fed some kind of super slop to keep parasites away. Not to mention ,the food coloring added to make it more appealing for the consumer.

Everyone will have to eat, what ever that cow, pig, lamb, or chicken ingested while it was alive, and anything done to it at the manufaturing plants.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not a vegatarian, or a die hard carnivor either.

As for the organic produce, unless you have your own greenhouse the topic is pointless. There is too much polution in the air and water to garrantee anything to be truely organic.

By Yankee on Wednesday, August 09, 2000 - 12:04 pm: Edit

I missed that piece on 20/20. What portion of the program contained bogus information? Can we get some specifics here? I don't doubt some of it was yellow journalism. I'm just curious how much of it was bogus.

In some ways, 20/20 is no better or worse than you are, vbean. They sometimes just spew without keeping thier facts straight.

You are right though, Disney will run the world in a few years. LOL, better look out for those black helecopters with mouse ears.

Vbean, I'm not saying I write well at all. I'm just saying that most four year olds (or OJ Simpson) have better syntax than you do. Do you ever actually READ your posts?

I'm off to get a clue now, thanks "alot" for your guidance, vbean.

By vbean on Friday, August 11, 2000 - 02:21 am: Edit

Watch 20/20 tomorrow night, where they will tell you that they did not test the produce at all for anything..The piece was organic slander.

Thier is spelled their
helecopter is helicopter
Do you know what a syntax is? Do you read your posts?
I come from California. I have a speech pattern, as most people do from certain parts of the country.
I have asked for a few more eloquent speakers to join us.
Stay tuned.

By Yankee on Friday, August 11, 2000 - 01:31 pm: Edit

Vbean, can I get some mayo with my organic slander, please?

Thanks for correcting my typo's. I can't spell. You should look up "passive voice" after you have finished with syntax. (Syntax is the tax you pay when you purchase "vice" items like booze and cigarettes.)

I doubt you went to Cal. Most people don't forget what their major was.

I "am" also from California. No one cares.

Anyways, apologies to everyone else out there. I am sorry to have bored you all with my rants. I am going to "get over it" now and leave this thread.

Vbean, thanks for letting me antagonize you. I love picking on wimpy organics and taking thier lunch money. Try not to insult people you have never met just because they may not seem as PC as yourself. Swearing and acting rude just makes you look smaller and more paranoid than you think you are.


By Cheftim (Cheftim) on Saturday, August 12, 2000 - 02:15 am: Edit

I just finished watching 20/20.

OK there was no test for pesticide residue on any of the produce in the report.

So let us review.

The organic lettuce mix had higher levels of ecoli bacteria.

Organic produce is as healthy as regular produce.

Organic produce uses twice as much land to grow than regular produce.

I used the spell check and tried to use a common syntax so I hope everyone is happy with the format of this post.

By Vbean on Thursday, August 31, 2000 - 05:04 am: Edit

Pick up this month's issue of Gourmet.
The whole television piece was such a sham that I gave away my TV. The area I live in is breaking away and making the changes. (because I am surrounded by farmers).ORGANIC PRODUCE RULES!
The first most important piece of information:
Organic produce is cleaner.
Organic produce (by law) can only introduce fertilizer or waste products 30-60 (most farmers choose 60) before harvesting.

Conventionally harvested produce can be sprayed with waste up to the day of harvesting. The theory is that it is sprayed with so much chemicals to make it safe.

By vbean on Thursday, August 31, 2000 - 05:43 am: Edit

Chieftim, What was the common sytax for? So that you could refer to it in your notes?
The twice as much land comment. Where do you cook? Do you have any interest in what you are cooking? Do you care if you can get the same product next year? How about in five years?
Did you see it on TV, or does something really have meaning to you?
No one has been contaminated with e coli from an organic farm.

By vbean on Thursday, August 31, 2000 - 06:05 am: Edit

OH Yes, I did go to Cal. ( this is for Yankee).
I have never forgotten that my major was Political Science.Where did you get that bizzare idea? My major is very connected to what I do now. Food history and the reasons why and who created certain dishes are important to me.
I am angry, because I worked so hard for my degree, and then a person like you slips in.
Closed off, bitter TV person- why are you even in this thread? I want to know where you cook (or bake)it comes out in the product you know.

By Panini (Panini) on Thursday, August 31, 2000 - 05:51 pm: Edit

There will be no need to respond, thank you. I'm don't seem to be as educated as you all, although I did a 4 yr stint for a BA, and some cooking education along the way.
I just wanted to add that this thread has not had one ounce of productivity. I was interested in the issue, but vbean, you failed to uphold your side, and the rest don't seem to have a side.
Day 65 without rain and day 59 100 deg or better. Today 107 and the organic and regular farmers are sitting in an airconditioned bank trying to get a loan so they can try again next year.
I know the spelling,sytax,etc. are rongg.

By PEACE OUT!!! on Thursday, August 31, 2000 - 05:51 pm: Edit


By Ramodeo (Ramodeo) on Thursday, August 31, 2000 - 09:04 pm: Edit

I haven't added to this thread in a while, cuz I agree that it's been pretty unproductive. I'll just add a couple quick comments in hopes of MAYBE encouraging some intelligent debate.

vbean-you are being attacked for your syntax, etc. because you have yet to put together a viable argument for your position. You haven't convinced anyone here because you haven't written anything clear or logical. You have spouted what are apparently your opinions, then you seem to expect others with different opinions to agree with you just because you're you. ??? You started this thread, so it's your place to make a credible case for your side of the issue, otherwise the whole thread is a waste. If you could write a post or two that were clear, logical, well written arguments, I'd have a lot more respect and interest in what you have to say. That's the way to persuade others in this kind of forum.

If you managed to graduate from a university, I certainly hope that you learned to write a well constructed paper somewhere along the way. Let's see some of those skills!

As for the poor syntax being a result of a California upbringing???? Sorry, that's no excuse. Poor writing is just that - poor writing. (Can you guess that I don't believe in Eubonics, either?)

By vbean on Thursday, September 21, 2000 - 05:19 am: Edit

Go to hell all of you.
You have no interest in my skills in baking. I tell all my managers that sarcasam is not a motivational skill. Work with peoples ability.
Sarcasm is just a cheap shop of making yourself look better.
I guess that you did not grow up with black people. I did thank god! I think of myself as fortunate to have grown up with many black people. My life is better and fuller because of them.I can tell you that it is ebonics, not your other spelling- you will never get it anyway.
When I write well I will publish it. No need to worry to upset the freaks lost in crapy food land.

Some obscure person that,"doesn't believe in ebonics" is as a person that believes slavery never happened

By W.DeBord on Thursday, September 21, 2000 - 08:03 am: Edit

vbean you still don't understand....Everyone came here to read your thoughts, all of us were willing to discuss the issues with you (since you began the topic). It could nave been an interesting subject too.

We all did everything we could to get you to make some hard REAL points on the subject. But you rant, going off topic constantly because you didn't know anything REAL about your subject. Your last post is more of the same in an untimely manner.

I don't think anyone is interested in a silly verbal match with-out substance.

By Panini (Panini) on Thursday, September 21, 2000 - 05:35 pm: Edit

I am also interested in this subject. I don't think any of us are able to be on board 100% right away. vbean, if you just tried to be rational and maybe get us to become 10% involved, you would have been very sucessful.
Your passion clutters your views. Give us some ideas, tips, where to begin. The only organic thing I can find aroud here is in the Albertsons.
Give us some websites where we can start our search. Anyway, I applaud your passion and don't go away.

By Ramodeo (Ramodeo) on Thursday, September 21, 2000 - 06:51 pm: Edit

I see no need for swearing - it also "is not a motivational skill".

Quote:"No need to worry to upset the freaks lost in crapy food land." What?????

While my comment about ebonics was out of place in this forum - and I apologize - it gives you no information whatsoever about who I grew up with, or my views on slavery, or even the color of my own skin. You need to be more careful.

By Chefrick (Chefrick) on Friday, September 22, 2000 - 03:46 pm: Edit

What do you want to do here? I personaly would like to know more about this topic,race,color,and profanity do not have anything to do with organic produce.Please refrain from this type of childish behavior.No one on this thread has professed to knowing everything about this topic and all have expressed interest in this subject.Get off the pity,poor me,soapbox and TEACH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

By Cheftim (Cheftim) on Monday, September 25, 2000 - 12:04 am: Edit

I just picked up these links from another Forum.
Here is a little reading for those interested

An Overview.
The good, the bad and the genetically engineered

How far it has gone.
South American Business Information

What just happened
Taco Bell sees no need for recall

By Chefrick (Chefrick) on Monday, September 25, 2000 - 06:12 pm: Edit


Thanks for the links,it is refreshing to have someone add to this thread with helpful info instead of beating a dead horse.

By Panini (Panini) on Monday, September 25, 2000 - 06:48 pm: Edit

Good links!

Biotechnology is in it's infancy. I'm fully on board with enzyme and gene technology.
I sit on the Board of Directors for the Ryan Foundation.
If you have time and want a feel good moment go to the and see what this grassroots effort has done with enzyme and gene research.

By Cheftim (Cheftim) on Monday, October 02, 2000 - 02:10 pm: Edit

Here is a link to an article about the Taco Bell, GM corn Taco Shell Scare.
<A HREF="">Junk Science :Taco Terrorism,</A>
A Short Quote:
"Although Kraft Foods has recalled the taco shells, there's no need to panic. The science underlying the claims and the track record of the anti-biotech groups will leave you more inclined to believe that Taco Bell's Chihuahua really can talk."

By Cheftim (Cheftim) on Friday, October 06, 2000 - 12:15 am: Edit

This site describes how transgenic crops are made and includes outstanding animations of all parts of the process, showing them with non-technical descriptions.

I got this link trough Nutrition News Focus a Nutrtion Enewsletter I receive. While most sites on dealing with Geneticaly Modified Organisims slant one way or the other this site seams to be even handed.

By Cheftim (Cheftim) on Tuesday, October 17, 2000 - 10:36 pm: Edit

I apologize my earlier post was missing the Link and URL
Transgenic Crops, This site describes how transgenic crops are made and includes outstanding animations of all parts of the process, showing them with non-technical descriptions.

I got this link trough Nutrition News Focus a Nutrtion Enewsletter I receive. While most sites on dealing with Geneticaly Modified Organisims slant one way or the other this site seams to be even handed.

By vbean on Friday, November 03, 2000 - 05:21 am: Edit

I am a Pastry Chef, one with a BA from Berkeley. I have been doing this for 15 years (and savory food for 6 years).
I can write. I have won credits, awards, and sold stories.
I can also bake. I have found this web site ripe with bullish assholes.
I am not the person that needs to be more careful. I was nice, and I was ripped apart.

By Panini (Panini) on Friday, November 03, 2000 - 02:01 pm: Edit

Now there there, we know your more thick skinned than that. I don't know if your nice, don't really care. I just come here for insite on things that might interest me. Hasen't been much lately. People are much mightier with the keypad than in real life. You don't have to prove yourself to anyone. Weren't you here for the tj bashing. If been bashed here, maybe from the young and the old, but I will tell you, I can chew most of them up and spit them out, on my turf. But I certainly will not tell them that, because I'm open enough to understand that maybe I can't. How's that for articulation, you wouldn't think that I was educated from reading that, would you?

By Chefrick (Chefrick) on Friday, November 03, 2000 - 10:58 pm: Edit

Vbean,I respect the fact that you have an education,and have been in this bussiness along time.I am positive I could learn from you,as I can from everyone at this forum,when you are attacked as you put it before, come from the fact that at times you are a bit over bearing,and down right rude,you reap what you sow.sorry to have been so blunt.

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