I hope I don't break any rules by posting this, I didn't see any in the usage agreement that said I couldn't...also hope I don't tick you fine people off with what to y'all is probably a bunch of silly questions. Pardon the length please but I need to make sure I get all the information in so as to get the best answer, I don't know a lot about weddings/receptions/caterers/etiquette etc., where I'm from if someone's rude you take 'em and out back and whup 'em...I break into and stop others from breaking into computer networks for a living, not cook good food and make others shindigs go well, and wouldn't wish to have y'all's jobs for anything, too many people like me in the world. >8^)
(continued)

By Len Day on Thursday, August 30, 2001 - 01:15 am: Edit

My question is about the caterer. To start, he knew 6 months ago that round tables would be at the reception. Wait, even before that I started getting bad vibes because he didn't show up for several appointments we had, appointments at his request twice and ours once. Not cancelled, just plain didn't show. And we made a 2 1/2 hour drive to be there while he LIVES there. He agreed to provide all linens, plates, beer, wine, and food etc for 70 people on a per plate price of $27. Pretty good price we thought, one lady told us $35-$55 and was kinda snooty about it, so we went with him. (OK, I was mean, I let her do a credit check per her request on me first, once she got nice to us I blew her off just as snootily as she did my wife. I know a few polysyllabic words just like she does and _I_ even use 'em correctly in sentences when I wanna. Sorry to the rest of you nicer ones but she deserved it.) At 10:30 AM on the day of the 5PM recepetion, he called to tell my wife that he didn't have any round linens (He's done receptions at the same place many times and the facility always provides the SAME tables. It's a small town.) and that it was OUR responsibility to procure them from a local tent/party rental place. Luckily he got my wife and her mother instead of me. After some discussion it was agreed that he WOULD provide the linens. We still had 5 tables with no cover of any sort on them. First problem. (he also tried to tack his linen rental onto my bill from the rental company. Luckily I know the owner personally and he wouldn't let him. Call that problem 1a. )

Second problem. He was rude to one of my guests. Not just looking down his nose rude, I mean loud, obnoxious, screaming rude. The guest lifted the lid of one of the chafing dishes before they were ready to start serving. He was just curious as to what was on the line and none of the servers were at the line tables to ask yet. I understand there some laws about the food being out and all the caterer had to say was please don't do that sir because yada yada yada...he was talking to a grown man, with a 4th degree black belt at that >8^), not a three year old. Come to think of it, if he'd have spoken to a 3 year old that way I'd have thrown him out on his bum. _I_ heard the last portion of the exchange myself and most of the other guests and his employees did also, and took him in the rear of the building with just him and me in the room and politely, as possible that is in the frame of mind he'd put me in, explained that the people there were my guests and didn't need to be spoken to in such a manner. He somewhat explained the laws and his position and I said I understood and so would have the guest...without all the screaming and hollering. He never did apologize to either me or the guest or more importantly my wife. (that's about strike 4 by now) I heard it with my own ears and found it hard to believe, but he literally screamed at the man. (continued)

By Len Day on Thursday, August 30, 2001 - 01:17 am: Edit

Third problem. And possibily this is standard practice for all I know. The servers drank a goodly portion of the liquor. Not a big deal in itself as I would have offered it to 'em but there's more. My wife and I provided the liquor because we wanted an open bar and the caterer said he was unable to provide anything other than beer and wine. I would have offered everyone who worked that night all the booze they felt like drinking. AFTER they did their jobs. I didn't witness it myself so haven't said anything about it yet but I was told by several people that they were all drinking it even before we were. Tables weren't even cleared of dishes. Our family members had to clear the tables and put away most of the dishes for pickup the next day after my wife and I left. The party started at 5 and I do know because I saw it that they were well on the way to polluted by 7. By 9 they were snockered. They did have a good time out on the dance floor with us though and I did want everyone there to have a good time. One even took a bottle out of my hand to fill his own glass. I sooooo didn't want to ruin things for my wife so I just filed it away for later discussion with the caterer.(perhaps to show the degree of my restraint by this point it helps to know that I'm 6'3", 270lbs and also a ranked belt myself, taught by the guest who got hollered at in fact. >8^)

A few questions here. Is it acceptable practice for the catering staff to partake of the booze? Especially booze not provided by the caterer? Without it at least being offered first? More importantly, without waiting for the bride and groom to have a drink first? I wouldn't think so but if it is I'll un-ruffle my feathers about it as it's not their drinking it that I mind but the way in which it was done. Is it standard for a caterer to agree to provide certain items, and then inform the client at the (basically) last minute that he doesn't have them and the client needs to get them? Especially when he knew even before the contract was signed that he'd need those particular items? (he didn't offer to subtract any of the cost either which was why ma-in-law made certain he'd get them. She gave him the opportunity in no uncertain terms and he said it was our responsibility. Her not backing down scared him I think.) How does a caterer charge per plate? Does he count the dirty dishes and send a bill based on that? Is a per plate charge actually a per person charge? How does he get the number of people either way? Should the caterer serve the cake after the bride cuts it? I'm told so but I honestly have NO idea. Did I forget anything? Seems like it. Ooh wait, I got one...should the bill be itemized? Or just say TOTAL $X.XX (I'd think itemized, I always itemize my clients bills for the consulting/integration work I do so that they KNOW what they're paying for as "I ain't cheap but I CAN be had." ) (continued)

By Len Day on Thursday, August 30, 2001 - 01:19 am: Edit

Last problem. I now have a bill. A very large bill. With a fairly hefty gratuity thrown in. First off, and this is just my opinion but I'm a very good tipper, I think it should be up to me to decide on gratuity amount but after this experience I can see why he adds it himself. I can not get my math to equal his bill. Maybe it's that New Math thing. 70 people at $27 plus .06 sales tax plus $380 gratuity = $2383.40 on my calculator. It equals $2587 and change on his. (I suspect he's charging me for the linen rentals that HE contracted to provide in addition to already charging me for them as part of the contract in the first place) Have I missed something? Perhaps someone had more than one plate and they do count them to figure the cost? Help me out folks, please, I don't want to be angry at the man if it's unwarranted.

I'm not a cheapskate. As a computer security consultant for the government and the private sector I'm fairly well paid. Even for the South. I don't mind paying for things but I DO like to get what I pay for and I'm not so sure I have in this case. Or, were my expectations off the wall and I got exactly what I paid for and would have gotten from any other caterer? Should I just pay up (I'm not refusing to pay by the way, we just got the bill today from the party Saturday.) and consider it a lesson learned? Or should I sit and daydream about kickin' the stuffin' out of him and tell everyone I know in that town and the surrounding area what a bad experience we had? He's been in business for several years in that area but if our reception was any indication of how he does business I don't see how. Again, if I'm off the mark please tell me because I have no experience with these things and I really don't want to be angry at him if it's my fault, it IS basically a small town and I may run into him from time to time and down here we'd rather be polite to someone than growl at 'em, even if we don't really like 'em. >8^)

JEEESH...sorry for the long windedness...

By Chefmanny (Chefmanny) on Thursday, August 30, 2001 - 05:37 am: Edit

Sounds like you got screwed man, will elaborate later...heading to work now. Don't pay the bill yet if you haven't yet...not all of it anyway.

By Panini (Panini) on Thursday, August 30, 2001 - 06:37 am: Edit

I agree with Manny, if anything pay him 60% of the bill in good faith and ask for a meeting to discuss the function. It's silly, but see if you can get some of your guests, preferably not family or good friends to attest to some of the things you have written. I read it briefly but it sure sounds like these guys were unprofessional.
We are going to get into alot of stuff like permits,health insp. so I will post later tonight.gtg to work time to make the donuts.

By catergreat on Thursday, August 30, 2001 - 01:37 pm: Edit

I agree with Panini, pay 60%. I would be very upset with the staff drinking your alcohol. Why not send HIM a bill for the open bar at $20.00 per staff member?

This is NOT standard practice. This caterer is obviously not in control of his business. The ONLY way I would pay any bill is to have an itemized bill. You should have signed an agreement which would state how he charges. Most reputable caterers charge by the number of guest in attendance or guaranteed, whichever is greater. If he charges for seconds, that should be in the agreement.

Him being rude to your guest? Hmmm.. I think he handled it poorly and you handled it great, don't stress over it.... He ruined his reputation that night. You, nor your guests will ever use him again. How was the food?

Feel free to post in here anytime. You don't have to be a professional caterer to post here, look at MikeSul. :) (inside joke)

I think we all know now why he was the cheapest. Don't pay anything he cannot explain. Demand compensation for the poor staff and your guests clearing tables. Complain to the BBB. First, see what he will do for you.

My thoughts,

Carl

By Chefmanny (Chefmanny) on Thursday, August 30, 2001 - 05:00 pm: Edit

Len, Carl pretty much said what needs to be said. This guy needs to give you consideration for the lack of professionalism demonstrated by his staff. Of course this is assuming all you are saying is also accurate, there are always 3 sides to any story as you well know. Staff drinking at the end of the party or close to the end is tolerable, not all night, especially if you were paying for the booze. Are you in FL.? The guy not providing anything you asked for and contracted for and not delivered you do not need to pay for. If you needed 20 tableclothes and you got 15, I would pay for the 15 but would definitely bi--- about the missing ones, if they were round and you got rectangles, don't pay for them at all, it's not what you paid for. The staff dancing with guests, totally unprofessional unles you and the staff are friends also. You did the right thing by not making a scene, for your wife's sake not the caterer or you, it was the proper thing to do, you should have definitely talked to the caterer at the end of the event about his shortcomings.
I would not pay more then the 60% period if all you are saying is accurate and can verify it in court if need be, get written statements from several guests if you can.
Good Luck

By mikesul on Thursday, August 30, 2001 - 05:03 pm: Edit

Thanks for the compliment Carl! :)

I agree with all the rest. I think you should have gotten the message when he blew you off for the meetings in the first place. Did you get any references? Just a thought for the future.

I think 60% would more than cover what you owe him. Your guests staffed the function. His "guests" drank the booze.

I would ask for a meeting and first ask him how he thought the event went. If he admits to problems - let him sink himself. Ask him if he noticed A,B,C,D,E,F,.... Ask him if it is normal that the guests clear the plates, that his staff drinks during the event, that he not provide the proper # of linens. Cake cutting....some charge for it, some don't. WHo made it? WHo got paid for it? Why wasn't it discussed - because you weren't dealing with a professional.

Set up a meeting - this time at your place!

Good luck.

Mike

By Len Day on Thursday, August 30, 2001 - 05:17 pm: Edit

Thanks to all of you. I knew if I could find some pro's I'd get my questions answered. (I checked out some of the numerous web sites on "do-it-youselfers" trying to find an answer, best thing I can say is that they led me here. (g) )

As near as I can tell, the things I said are correct, where I wasn't sure because I didn't witness them myself I tried to point out to be fair. Glad to hear y'all think the bill should be itemized as well. His failure to do so concerns me a bit. Seems somewhat dishonest but perhaps he and I just do business differently. The food was excellent by the way, I'll certainly give him that. The wedding/reception was held in SC, they do have some strange laws...about almost everything. (G) I would have talked to him after the event but he left around 7:30, well before his servers did. I don't wish to shortchange him or "rip him off" as it were, and I won't, I'll take into consideration what you all have said, but I can't help but feel that we got a raw deal.

Thanks again and if I can return the favor in some measure let me know...

By Chefmanny (Chefmanny) on Thursday, August 30, 2001 - 06:38 pm: Edit

Thanks Len

By Panini (Panini) on Thursday, August 30, 2001 - 08:10 pm: Edit

Len, I think everybody here wants you to know that there are some exceptions in our business. Most of us are very respectable in the industry and things like this are upsetting.
This caterer does not sound like he's on top of things. The sooner you put it to sleep the better. My suggestion is not to let him drag on this. Send partial payment with a registered letter stating that the check would be considered final payment if he does not respond in 15 days.
It sounds like he will not even respond.
PS. From your comments gratuity is OUT of the question.
Jeff

By Yankee on Thursday, August 30, 2001 - 09:12 pm: Edit

Jee-Zusss-Christ!

Sixty percent sounds more than fair. Forty percent is where I would start.

Unless it was stated in your contract, I doubt he can add in gratuity.

You provided the booze, and his staff was drinking it before you guys even showed up? Oh man, I'd fry the guy. A staff drink or two after the event AND after you gave your OK is fine, anything more and I'd hit the roof.

I'm with Panini. Document your issues with his services (point by point, nice and simple, note how upset you are but don't go overboard), cut a check and do the "if you cash this, the matter is considered closed," and let it ride.

It's not being cheap, not at all. The guy screwed you big time. Besides, he won't waste his time coming after you for the balance.

Good luck.

By ImDaChef on Friday, August 31, 2001 - 12:24 am: Edit

First of all the caterer nor staff should NEVER partake of alchohol while on duty. It's just bad form. Even if the client offers it. Deduct from the bill whatever you feel they drank since the caterer didn't provide the booze.

Next, do not pay that bill until you've had an opportunity to talk to the guy and work out something. I mean services were rendered so you owe something but not what he charged you. I think 60% is more than enough. It will cover the gratuity. Some add gratuities and some don't. It was always my policy not to charge a gratuity but it was always on my bill that "gratuities are not charged but greatly appreciated." The bill should always be itemized. Most people come back and ask
"what was this for?" anyway.

This guy makes the rest of us look bad. Personally, I would have fired him and got someone else the first few times he was a no show for your meetings with him. Unless of course he had good reasons...

You got the short end of the stick. I'm really sorry about that. Not all caterers are as bad as he is. Sounds like even though Miss Snooty was priced higher, you would've had a better event.

Good luck

By Len Day on Friday, August 31, 2001 - 01:06 pm: Edit

As you say there are exceptions in every field, I've had to clean up networks behind others for clients that had been...shafted. One of the missed meetings he claims to have had an emergency, (I can accept that) the other he jsut forgot...(ahem).

Following y'all's advice I checked with everyone that was there and I find that I have, drum roll please, VIDEO! Heheheheh...sweet serendipity! One of the guests was playing around getting his camera ready and has brief moments of video of the drinking, WITH a time and date stamp, and I have audio from the videographers camera, but unfortunately no video, of the shouting match. My lawyer friend tells me the audio by itself may not be admissable due to privacy laws (you can take pictures but not record a conversation without participants knowledge) but the video IS, and since there's implied consent by just being at the function the audio MAY be but would be up to the judge to decide, but the video alone should be enough to make any legal point if he pushes it that far. And of course I've asked everyone to check whatever pictures they took when they get them developed. I'm REALLY not usually so anal-retentive about things but I'm kinda ticked off about the whole thing. So I think I'll follow more of y'all's advice than I originally intended and do the 60% thing and see how he reacts. I feel he should be paid for his food and work, but I also feel he should offer a little lagniappe back to us due to his lack of professionalism. I know not all folks in the industry are like this, just like they're not all swollen-headed-over-chargin'-know-it-all's in mine but I won't recommend him to anyone else. I suppose that's my best revenge. >8^)

Thanks again y'all! (and I'll let ya know how it goes.)