| By Catergreat (Catergreat) on Monday, June 11, 2001 - 04:35 am: Edit |
Let's share our websites and ideas.
Take a look at mine and let me know if you see anything or hear anything that doesn't make sense...
http://www.premier-place.com
| By Cheftim (Cheftim) on Monday, June 11, 2001 - 11:24 am: Edit |
Hey Carl,
The music is great....the first time.
At work I have a smaller monitor 13.5 inch and I get a horizontal scroll, you could have a more fluid page if you used percentage for width instead of the absolute width you use now. Or at least keep the total pixel width below 800 your ate I think 840pixels across
In your "Welcome to Premier-Place.com !" table you declare a "splendid" font I don't have "splendid" on my computer so if you design is dependent on that font I won't see it. As a matter of fact the font sizes in that table are completely different in NS as opposed to IE.
In IE5.5 I can see the all the text but in NS4.7 I can see the colored text (the headings)but not the default colored text (most of the body).
Most design primers suggest keeping the color scheme to three colors. Some colors combinations that are hard on the eyes are blue (0000FF) on black (000000) and red (FF0000) on black.
A black back ground was really in with the artzy web designers about year and a half ago but again for a commercial site most design primers suggest a white or pale color for the back ground, it tiers the eye less
After fifteen minutes you don't even notice the music.
Dust in the wiiinnnd, all we are is dust in the wiiinnnd.
Here is the URL for the web site that I designed and manage for the company I work for.
http://www.atyourservicehospitality.com/aysc/
Tim
| By George (George) on Monday, June 11, 2001 - 12:47 pm: Edit |
Hi Carl,
Nice looking site.
Good consistent navigation, and content.
I agree with all Tim has said. The music OK but it is doesn't add to your message and it increases the download time for the page.
Another argument against doing a dark background page is if a visitor want to print out a page it will really use up a lot of ink.
I also have to scroll horizontally to read the text on the home page.
On your menus page I was only able to get the upscale dinners page to load the rest came back blank and they opened new browsers windows. This is usually unnecessary. Normally you would only want to open a new browser if you were linking to a page not on your site. The link you were kind enough to give to this forum opens in the same window. It should open in a new one so you keep your visitor. (thanks for the link ;<) )
Using an image to display text, as on the menus page, is generally a bad idea. It takes a chance for a search engine hit away because search engines can’t read images. Also if a visitor has images turned off of if they are visually impaired their browser will return nothing.
One major problem with the site is the way it displayed using a frame and a redirect. If you click on the link from your message your url stays in the location bar which is good but it doesn’t change because your provider is using a redirect to the site on a different server. If you look at the source for the page all you get is-
Quote:<HTML><HEAD><TITLE>www.premier-place.com</TITLE><META NAME="this content brought to you by directNIC domain redirection" CONTENT="directNIC domains for $15 a year. Free redirection! http://directnic.com"></HEAD><FRAMESET ROWS="100%,*" BORDER=0 FRAMEBORDER=0 FRAMESPACING=0><FRAME NAME="top" SRC="http://www.digitaladvance.net/premier-place" NORESIZE></FRAMESET></HTML>
| By Panini (Panini) on Monday, June 11, 2001 - 07:18 pm: Edit |
same:
paninicakes.com
Jeff
| By tigerwoman on Monday, June 11, 2001 - 07:58 pm: Edit |
From a non technical viewpoint, I liked the site, but found the music ultimately annoying (a initial music sound bite would have been enuf). The pics are good but also a bit too dark to see well, tho most clients don't look that closely. Overall a very interesting and informative site.
Did you hire someone or did you play with it yourself. As for the Marriott site - it's too boring. But I guess that's what a corporate site is all about - or is it?
| By Cheftim (Cheftim) on Monday, June 11, 2001 - 08:27 pm: Edit |
Panini,
Your site is visually appealing.
The cake graphics are great, some of the best I have seen.
Its hard to blend text and graphics using html and get a page to look exactly the way you want it. Typicaly this is frustrating for print designers. The common way of over coming this is to design a large picture using a graphics program like dreamweaver and then cut it up and place the pieces in a table. Use java script for navigation and you have a web page.
While this seams to take care of the need for pixle perfect placement of graphics and text it can cause other problems. Graphics take longer to download that text. So people wanting to see your web page/site could be in for a wait. To long a wait and people just leave. Also as George says above:
Quote:Using an image to display text, as on the menus page, is generally a bad idea. It takes a chance for a search engine hit away because search engines can’t read images. Also if a visitor has images turned off of if they are visually impaired their browser will return nothing.
| By Cheftim (Cheftim) on Monday, June 11, 2001 - 09:48 pm: Edit |
tigerwoman,
That's a good point about boring.
Beyond the technical problems I pointed out in Carl's Web site, it does deliver a message. It has content that engages the viewer and draws them deeper into the site. WE WILL, WE WILL, ROCK YOU, youv'e got blood on your face, big disgrace..... uh sorry
Panini's site uses graphics that excite and delivers what people want to see when they are looking for cakes on the web, good cake pictures. Enticing one to further explore.
The "Marriott Site" does the job too. If you look a little harder you will see that its a web page for At Your Service Catering. The Caterer inside The Residence Inn by Marriott. At one point the site was branded for The Catering Company. Most of the traffic to the site comes form bridal web sites where the listing is for the Hotel. People are looking for venues mostly I guess. The link would send them to the AYSC site and they would be confused thinking they had been mis-directed.
So the site was changed to use the Marriott style branding. It was developed use existing collateral.
As far as it being boring I think you have a point. I'm not trained in design. I worked on consistent, easy to understand of navigation, a quick download and getting the information to the viewer.
Tim
| By George (George) on Monday, June 11, 2001 - 10:38 pm: Edit |
Hi Jeff-
The page really looks great and the pictures are beautiful.
Again I have to bring up the text as images thing.
From what I could find there is not a single line of text on the whole site. Yet amazingly you type in panini cakes at google.com and you are there at #1
How did you do that? Is it a sponsored listing?
No other customer related searches brought up the site (the stuff a potential client searching the web would use to find you) but it is a good thing to have the name of the business be a hit.
BTW Panini Bakery didn't bring you up, instead it returned a bakery in Mass. I went down 8 layers (to the 80th listing and didn't see anything on your site)
All that said it is a great site to refer a customer to see your work.
George
| By Debord (Debord) on Tuesday, June 12, 2001 - 09:14 am: Edit |
I can only comment as an artist I sure don't understand the techincal aspects. I agree with everything previously mentioned but felt embarrassed to critique....
I don't have my speakers on so I didn't hear your music at premier place. I love dramatic effects but I found your site hard on my eyes. I also was impatient waiting for you screen changes and I'm not fond of having to scroll to see the whole page. I love to look at photos albums....thats what I did first at your site. Again your desire to show drama was interesting I could barely see any detail showing your food though...(too much background stuff happening, crop your photos in much tighter because we want to see food only, your not selling backgrounds).
Panini cakes is really perfect, I found it visually great! Easy to navigate, read, figure out...The only thing I wanted was more....I would have sat there for hours looking at your photo album in fact I clicked on tighter to look at all your photos. Then I tried to find more...birthday cakes, novielty cakes...but then that's when it's time to call you and buy so your right on!
At your service... the info. on the company type was too small it didn't show us quickly who was the company we were contacting...marriot or who? Actually the whole thing would come together perfectly just changing your type faces and sizes. Your photos are great but all in a row forces them to be too small. I can barely see them...maybe only two or three photos would have been better, then place one in you body of you text. Your really close...just a few changes would help greatly.
| By Cheftim (Cheftim) on Tuesday, June 12, 2001 - 12:46 pm: Edit |
Thank you Wendy,
This is the most important kind of feed back, form an end user. It's like having a focus group.
If you please help me understand what you said about "it didn't show us quickly who was the company we were contacting...marriot or who"
The first three lines of the opening page are:
The name of the company>AT YOUR SERVICE CATERING
The address> 2101 W. Vineyard Ave., Oxnard, CA 93030, Phone# (805)278-2200, FAX# (805)485-4411
and the location> inside the Residence Inn by Marriott
Mostly in large font size.
But these are in the Header and it has been said many people don't even look at headers because they kind of block them out as advertising.
But the first line of text says the same thing sans the address. Should I make the first lines of the text a little bigger?
Font faces can be a problem on the web because they depend on the viewer having that font installed on their computer. If they don't it defaults.
One thing I want to say while AYSC is a different company than the hotel, we try to present a seamless experience for the guest so they don't really see us a being separate from the hotel.
Yes you are right about the pictures, again this is what comes form use material designed for print and not the web.
Another aspect is in Carl's Site and Panini's Site the principals (owners) were involved and the sites express more of their personalities. The AYSC site really has no individual personality (I am not sure it should?), it is more a reflection of a company.
| By Debord (Debord) on Wednesday, June 13, 2001 - 07:43 am: Edit |
It is how we are conditioned to look at pages. I tend to think it's the location way on top that doesn't stand out to me (I'd place it at the readers dirrect eye level so they didn't have to scan the page to locate it). It's also the color of your title, it blends into your border with it's color. Where as your "welcome" jumps out because of its' location and color contrast with the rest of the page. Make it really clear in a MOMENTS glance what and who you are!
Then your address, business info. are all in italac at the top of the page and the bottom...I have a larger monitar then most users and I have to really squint and focus to read the info. It seems redundant too, isn't the info. repeated?
That info. takes a back seat to your body of text and honestly I won't read your body of text....I'm not sure other people will?? If you look at the space your body of text gets and the size of it's type it gets 50% of the page (and it's not doing anything sales wise for me). I'm going to scan this info. which can all be given once you've impressed me enough to call you. I'd also loose the space alloted for "welcome" and give it to your name.
Your ad/image is your sale piece, words should be limited...trust me your on the right track...you just need a little refining.
The relection of the company better have some style/personality otherwise what do you have to sell why should I come to you?
I like the traditional format everyone uses where the click on info. lines up on the left side of the page (Panini, Greatcaterer and webfoodpros. all use this format). Then I'd like to click on to your info. and at that point learn more about your company like the info. in your body of text and individual photos. Even if your photos aren't perfect I still want to look at them, that's how I'm going to judge if I can invision my event at your place and decide if I'm going to phone you for more details. I'd rather see one good photo then a whole strip that isn't in focus....
Just my twenty cents...
| By Cheftim (Cheftim) on Wednesday, June 13, 2001 - 12:43 pm: Edit |
Wendy,
Thank you, you have given so much. I will be referencing back to this post while I am working on a redesign.
Tim
| By debord on Thursday, June 14, 2001 - 07:09 am: Edit |
Sorry, I feel bad critiqueing peoples work...we haven't heard back from Catergreat yet, I hope you weren't offended!
I did study commercial art (Illustration) for 3 years. Then I worked as a professional fine artist for 10 or so (not an easy way to make a living)years. I don't know computor art at all and haven't studied peoples web pages...it's not my focus anymore...but somethings do carry over.
Just as chefs get frustrated with home cooks under pricing them and selling risky items...the graphic art field has been crushed by people doing their own art work. Since computor programs have simplified the layout process everyone now is an artist. Just thought I'd let you know other fields have their problems with being undersold/undervalued/under-appreicated, etc...
I'd bet Panini hired a profesional artist to do his site? Then I'd guess Catergreat did use someone...but I guessing it was a freind or a young kid, not a seasoned pro. I'm I all wet?
I have no intent to offend, just asking...
| By Cheftim (Cheftim) on Thursday, June 14, 2001 - 10:28 am: Edit |
I knew you had worked as an artist in another life and I could tell you knew what you were talking about as far as design. I value what you have told me and appreciate the opportunity to improve on what I have already done.
Critiques are what it is all about if it web pages, writing or food. If we that have already come this far in the food industry we should be able to take some honest criticisms. Many people can say I like this or don't like that but to be able to hear precisely what is right or wrong, that is a like mining gold.
| By Panini (Panini) on Thursday, June 14, 2001 - 07:11 pm: Edit |
Thanks for the compliments.
We actually just scanned pictures that we had.
We had help to set it up,limited, 500.
We are now thinking about dreamweaver or some such program so we can edit monthly. Maybe a monthly newsletter,coupon, specials, etc.
Our site is mainly our online brochure, it also helps maintain the phones. We direct calls there so customers can get a feel for what we do. People like the site, I hate the pictures we used.
My wife is in advertising and suggested not to use our nicest cakes.Intimidation factor.
again thanks
Jeff
| By Panini (Panini) on Thursday, June 14, 2001 - 07:23 pm: Edit |
btw, I enjoyed both websites. I think there is less freedom when you are using the site for business vs using the site as a brochure.
Music, alright. Illegal caters? hum.
jeff
| By catergreat on Sunday, June 17, 2001 - 03:30 pm: Edit |
Debord, I am not offended in the least. I have taken the comments and made many changes. This is what I was looking for!!!
Check out my RSVP online feature on the wedding receptions page http://www.premier-place.com
Panini, what do you mean by "hum" referring to the illegal caterers banner? I am looking for critique, let me have it... :)
I plan on placing the Beware of Illegal Caterers banner only on a couple of pages... right now it does seem to dominate....
I am happy to continue to debate the illegal caterers thing on another folder...
Carl
| By Panini (Panini) on Sunday, June 17, 2001 - 07:15 pm: Edit |
Carl,
Everything you say is true, I just think it's a little strong, especially the turning in thing. I wonder if a potential client will view this as trashing the competition to make yourself look good. I don't know, it's a hard thing to get across. We were thinking about asking the question, are you planning on using a legal caterer?.Maybe doing it verbally. Plus posting all of our credentials like you've done.
I really enjoyed the music. We eliminated the music for the mere fact that most of our clients visit us during work hours and don't want anybody to know they are not working.
I really like the RSVP. Awsome!
Jeff
| By debord on Sunday, June 17, 2001 - 11:34 pm: Edit |
I think Panini again makes a good point about what to mention and maybe what you shouldn't. There's a conflict to your style....in some areas your formal and very professional very "upscale" and then you throw in some slang or a jab at something which takes away from my image of you.
You get personal because you care and have taken alot of time to think of everything. I tend to think you should have someone (not you) edit your script and keep you more formal (including watching some missed periods etc...).
I also think you give too much info. in some places. Then in other places you can't see how a unfamilar person might not understand all the information your giving them.
For instance a person new to catering would probably want all the details about servers, costs, contracts (not menus) in one neat page. Then on seperate pages I'd show them menu ideas (and really clearly show them how to use your menu ideas). You combine some menus/ideas with contract info. on some pages but not on others?
I found your menu lists confusing. Sometimes you put together a meal (omiting the desserts though) and in other places it was just lists of dishes you make (some seemed to repeat under different titles, I didn't understand your lay-out). Plus I really would like some $ ideas of my various choices...any kind of hint of which package/party style would be in my budget....
I see your heart in you work, that shows clearly!!! I think you need to try and step back to see things as a un-educated first time client would see you and sell more to them (with a little teaching and no preaching).
| By Cheftim (Cheftim) on Monday, June 18, 2001 - 01:28 am: Edit |
Carl and all,
An alternate to the "beware of Illegal Caterers" banner, is linking things like
"The only Certified Professional Caterer in Jackson"
to an informational page about what a "Certified Caterer" is and then providing the information about illegal caterers. It's a softer way of bringing up the subject.
It might be worth while for the certifying body to tackle the subject on their web site enabling certified caterers to direct traffic to that page, deflecting the possible negatives implications from posting such things on their own site.
I took another look at http://www.premier-place.com, on the main page the navigation column is gone.
Some of the text on the site disappears in Netscape because NS won't let the color you declared as the default text color inherit into tables.
A simple fix would be to put
p { color: rgb(255, 255, 204) }
into your style sheet. I think that would work.
I like the RSVP feature. What a great service. (I sent a blank response to see it work). I see you take the RSVP message, What about setting it up so the bride or whoever would get the response? I don't see my catering managers willing to handle RSVP's.
| By Catergreat (Catergreat) on Friday, June 22, 2001 - 08:58 am: Edit |
I do have it set up to RSVP the bride's email directly...
Great ideas and comments folks. I will be making the changes as soon as I get through this killer weekend.
:)
Carl
| By Matt on Sunday, July 01, 2001 - 03:33 pm: Edit |
Let me first start by saying that I really enjoyed viewing everyones sites. They all look great and some need a few minor improvements as does ours, but that is what a website is all about. Always improving and making better. They truly are a never ending project and I applaud everyone who has submitted theirs on this board.
You can check out my site at http://www.ambrosiacaterers.com and please give me the same great feedback that you have given to the others. My site probably isn't the best and I realize that and I am open to any kind of feedback, good or bad.
P.S. To catergreat-yes we are legal! Sorry just had to get that in.
| By Panini (Panini) on Monday, July 02, 2001 - 06:03 am: Edit |
Matt,
Very nice site, I breezed through it this morning but will visit again tonight.
Raise you cake prices! ha!
Jeff
| By debord on Monday, July 02, 2001 - 08:03 am: Edit |
Wow, it looks VERY PROFESSIONAL! Great clean design....I only spent about 10 min. but I didn't see anything that needed help at all. Very clean look and things made sense right away. The only, only smallest thing I can think of is I'd like to see some photos if you have them?
From an artistic perspective I'd give you an A*!
| By Hilary on Monday, July 02, 2001 - 09:48 am: Edit |
I have enjoyed visiting your sites. I applaud those of you who built your own... your talents go far beyond the catering industry. It's been at least 3 years since ours was built and we are planning to revise it. I would appreciate your comments on how you think we could improve it. The address is
http://www.thepartyhelpers.com
Thank you in advance for your time
Hilary