Need advice on trianing new hire

Hey everyone,
I have a situation that I am not versed in. I was given a young man to train as a pantry person,he is clean cut,smart,wants to learn,dependable,has a basic knowlege of how a kitchen works,my problem is he gets scared to death of making the smallest mistake,I had him make a tray of finger sand. for a function, he was so scared that he was shaking,even though he was doing a great job,he was afraid if his end product didn't look as good as the ones we made yesterday together the GM would fire him on the spot.I am doing everything I can to put him at ease,but nothing seems to be working.I think he could be a dimond in the rough if he can just get past his fears. Any advice is welcome!!!

By W.DeBord on Thursday, August 31, 2000 - 07:34 am: Edit

Your going to think I'm being sarcastic but I'm not. I know someone who is such a perfectionist like what you describe and the ONLY thing that has ever helped him was taking prosac. You can talk to him till your blue in the face and he can not logicly control this perfectionism. Unforunately he's an employee not a loved one so I don't know if you can mention this to him.

P.S. I guess prosac works for things other than depression. It's amazing how different he is with the drug, functional vs. paralized with fear.

By Kaosfury (Kaosfury) on Thursday, August 31, 2000 - 08:33 am: Edit

The only advice I can give is to tell him to work through his fear. Have you asked him why he's so scared? Their might have been an experience that shook him up pretty bad. Sounds like he might be able to get over it in time though.

Just my 2 cents. Where's my change? ;)

Karl

By chris on Thursday, August 31, 2000 - 12:34 pm: Edit

Take him out for a few drinks after work and explain to him your expectations. Tell him that his imput is important and assure him that there are different ways to present food items. If you feel comfortable with his abilities let him run with some things on his own. Basically do or say things to keep building his confidence, if all else fails throw a pan at him.

By Chefrick (Chefrick) on Thursday, August 31, 2000 - 05:28 pm: Edit

I want to thank everyone for the help,W.DeBord was right on target,the kid showed up for work right on time,completed the tasks he was assigned helped some of the other workers and then told one of the ladies in the pantry how much he liked his job,had some kind of panic attack and disapaered without anyone seeing or hearing anything!His sister called about an hour later to let us know what had happened.Too bad,he seemed like he was going to be a good hand.Gotta go I have 300 students comming in for lunch,and a priest who thinks because he says mass he ought to get a sit & serve dinner for 1000 people donated and does not seem to know what hell no means!

By Ramodeo (Ramodeo) on Thursday, August 31, 2000 - 09:19 pm: Edit

Even though it no longer applies to this situation, I have found the best way to get people past their perfectionism is to force them into a situation where it just can't be perfect (because of time constraints) and let them experience that it's OK anyway. For example - after making sure they have the basic skills and information they need, manufacture a time crunch - like teling them you just found out you have 30 minutes to prepare the catering tray you would really had 2 days notice of. Make sure they know time is the most important priority in this situation and to do their best. The first time you do this let them work together with you or another experienced person, so they can see just how much less than perfect is OK, then put them in the same situation by themselves.

Now - for the person who's got a need for medication, this would probably put them over the edge, but for the average worker with a normal fear of failure, it can help.

Just an idea....

By Bakerboy (Bakerboy) on Thursday, August 31, 2000 - 09:56 pm: Edit

So did this guy quit or did you fire him?. Maybe if you called and talked to him about it you could salvage a great employee. Just because he had a panic attack doesn't make him useless. It can be controlled through medication. Also, I want to say that whenever time is a problem the end product comes out like crap. Some people need to realize that everything shoudldn't be rush rush. Yeah maybe if its a Slop house type restaurant, that just serves crap its ok. But if its a nice restaurant or a catering service the cooks and everyone should take more time. I don't know about you people, but if I am at a restaurant and my food comes right away and it tastes like crap, I never come back. On the other hand, if it takes for ever and its an amazing meal, I will always come back. You can have quality and speed to a certain point, but time really does matter. If you take your time and pay attention and really focus and think about what you are doing, rather than just, "going through the motions" you will have a much better out come. Yes its true that kitchen work is usually fast paced and their are time constraints. Sometimes there are situations where you have extra time to take your time though, and you wonder why your product doesn't come out that good all the time. It is possible to design a business where you have plenty of time to make your product...Where theres a will theres a way...

By W.DeBord on Friday, September 01, 2000 - 09:31 am: Edit

With due respect I understand your techinque Ramodeo and others. You are being logical and making sense. Sadly there are people who can't reason thru a situation. This kid would have understood everything (he's probably heard it dozens of times)...but it can be a sickness that's not curable thru logic. Putting any pressure on this kid in anyway would have only made him feel more like a freak.


I wish you could tell him, there is help out there, it isn't his fault.

By Jonnyboy (Jonnyboy) on Friday, September 01, 2000 - 03:23 pm: Edit

First off there is nothing wrong with being a perfectionist. When your name and reputation is on the line or for whomever happens to be employing you. As for your new hire since he seems to have the right attitude you can try to help him, but do you have time to be his baby sitter? If you leave work without telling anyone there had better be something better than i had a panic attack or you can take the rest of your life off, don't come back. Perhaps you are in a larger establishment than i but if someone walks off my line i'm dead, and you don't get a second chance. People who can't deal with their problems don't make good hires amyway as you have to see this will be an ongoin problem. And personally i don't want any of my cooks on prozac that's a little too dangerous.

By Ramodeo (Ramodeo) on Friday, September 01, 2000 - 05:23 pm: Edit

Jonnyboy - Just exactly what is dangerous about cooks being on Prozac? also, I envy you being in a position to dump people who have good working qualities 95% of the time and a problem (for which they can get help) which causes them to make a poor decision once. Where I am there is an extreme labor shortage that causes us to keep employees who have made a mistake or two, and do our best to work with them.

Bakerboy - please describe how a business is set up where you always have plentyu of time to make your product and also serve customers with last minute requests. I'd really be interested to hear.

By Raine on Friday, September 01, 2000 - 06:28 pm: Edit

"please describe how a business is set up where you always have
plentyu of time to make your product and also serve customers with last minute
requests."

Be organized, be prepared, and delegate tasks. At least, that's how it works for me.

By Ramodeo (Ramodeo) on Friday, September 01, 2000 - 08:27 pm: Edit

Yeah right. In a perfect world.

If you are doing a catered buffet, and your client tells you that they want to increase their numbers by 25% and it's 2 hours before the event and it's Saturday at 3:00pm, and you're staffed at the appropriate level for the planned event....organization and preparation and delegation are a great help, but you will not have as much time as you need to do everything to the absolute highest standard of perfection.

If you are flexible and creative and can work quickly, you will do what needs to be done to satisfy the client, and you will make more money (perhaps even a generous gratuity) and get more good recommendations. If you put perfectionism too high on your priority list, you would have to tell the client "No, I can't do that because it wouldn't be perfect" ?????. That may be fine if you're working for someone else, but not if it's your business on the line.

By Jonnyboy (Jonnyboy) on Friday, September 01, 2000 - 10:27 pm: Edit

Well i dont know but half mindless zombies on an addictive drug with knives and fire . HMMMMMMMM what could be dangerous about that. If you have ever been around someone with a panic/anxiety disorder they are not going to work out in a restaurant ever.The stress is too high and will cause the persons condition to get worse.And no we are having a difficult time finding good people to hire for our up coming season, but i would rathger work a man short than keep someone around cause i need a body. Perfection has to be one of your top priorities in this buisness.Most contracts have a clause in it that you must set numbers 24 hours in advance. The catering division where i am has told many people including the vip's at the all star game this year that they could not chanc=ge their numbers last minute. Most people understand this and if they dont you probably don't want them as clients anyway

By Chefrick (Chefrick) on Friday, September 01, 2000 - 11:35 pm: Edit

Jonnyboy,
I don't want to be rude,but I have had alot of good results hireing people from M.H.M.R., the local state school and other organizations where they train speacial needs clients to work in the resturant industry as dishwashers,porters,and prep persons. They do need extra attention but the result is an employee who is on time,cares about thier work,and do a fantastic job! Many of these people are on some type of drug to help them cope with everyday life,they are not DANGROUS just different an added bonus is that they come with supervisor to assist,supervise them.Depending on where they come from the company gets a good worker for a reduced hourly wage or in some cases for free, it's a win win situation for both the employee and the company!

By W.DeBord on Saturday, September 02, 2000 - 12:49 am: Edit

Johnnyboy your mis-informed about the drug mentioned and an embarrassment to your fellow man. Mental illness is an illness.

His described behavior is part of an illness that is beyond his control just as having a asmtha attack or a epoleptic seisure (sorry I can't spell either).

It's a tough life working in a kitchen...everyone here knows that (get off the soap box)...everyone here understands quality and the importance of perfectionism in our jobs. This isn't a poor scared kid who couldn't cut it in a kitchen....this is a sick person who got very sick one day at work ...so bad that it cost him a job.

P.S. From your comments you don't sound like a person who has personally ever been around a person having a panic attack (nice try to sound knowledgable) and you probably have a long list of people your phobic to be near too. Grow up!

By Jonnyboy on Saturday, September 02, 2000 - 01:11 am: Edit

well i won't give you my life history but i grew up around it all my life. Prozac is addictive and i have seen it's affect on several of the baby boomers that are in or around my family. If you can't fix the problem yourself no doctor or drug is gonna do it for you. It's all in your mind depression(serious everyone gets bummed out)anxiety, cronic fatigue, epstien bar(sp?) they are all about mind over matter as it is with just about anything wrong with your body. The only way to fix this stuff is to do it yourself.Maybe it seems calous to you that i think this person shouldn't be in the kitchen, but after what i have seen and working in this industry it would be cruel to put someone with this problem in this situation. Don't talk to me about mental illness i've seen it up close and personal for 27 years.

By Chefrick (Chefrick) on Saturday, September 02, 2000 - 02:58 am: Edit

Jonnyboy,
I try to refrain from personal attacts but you are really misinformed about mental illness.I to have been exposed to many people with some sort of mental problems,and it is not"all in your head" chemical imbalance is one of the causes,tramatic injury, birth defects ect.there are many reasons,this thread was started as a way of learning how to deal with a specific problem in training a person with a problem and has been turned into a bashing session,let it go!!!

By Bakerboy (Bakerboy) on Saturday, September 02, 2000 - 03:22 am: Edit

Johnboy, you are ignorant and mis-informed.Ramodeo, you don't always have to let your customers have last-minute requests. You can still survive. If your food or product is excelent everytime, not good one time and excelent another because you didn't have enough time to make it excelent. If it comes out right everytime, not to say that it will come out right everytime...We all make mistakes, but if it is because you rushed and it could have be prevented, you would lose money because you would have to throw whatever it was away. On the other hand if you took your time, you may have saved the product,and the money it took to make it. Also, it if it was a new customer and they were trying the product for the first time and it didn't come out satisfactory, just edible, they probably won't come back...But if it came out like it should with no real faults from trying to rush and "throw it together" then the customer will definitely come back.

By chris on Saturday, September 02, 2000 - 10:55 am: Edit

Johnnyboy you talk about being a perfectionist yet in an earlier post you didn't feel the need to know how to make the mother sauces. Now you are a mental health expert as well? HMMM?

By jonnyboy on Saturday, September 02, 2000 - 12:50 pm: Edit

Well first off we are talking about anxiety not mental illness. I'am I an expert? Not in a doctor sort of way but yes between my family and the messed up crowd i used to run with i have seen mental illness in several forms( some of them self induced.) I have 2 friends that i know that managed(a couple others never did get over it and a couple of them took their own lives over it) to get over their anxiety One of them was to the point where he wouldn't leave his house. The two who got over it stopped the drugs, skipped the shrink appointments and ended up over coming it themselves by forcing them selves into situations they couldn't handle. Well it worked and both of them work with me one is my sous chef.Thats just that side i wont go into my family life as that is not really somthing i'm gonna post. Just suffice to say that unless you worked in a mental health clinic you do not have more experience with these things than me.

By jonnyboy on Saturday, September 02, 2000 - 12:50 pm: Edit

P.S. Chris i never said you shouldn't know yur mother sauce i said they don't relly apply to cooking in the 21st century. I'll take a natural veal reduction over sauce espagnol(which i have neve made in my years of cooking) Bechamel? why dont you make areal cream sauce that actually tastes good.Again i have never made a bechamel sauce either. Where i work if i thicked anything with a roux it would go in the garbage immediatly

By Bakerboy (Bakerboy) on Saturday, September 02, 2000 - 04:37 pm: Edit

Johnboy, I wouldn't want to work where you work. Stop acting like your a Know-it-all. In foodservice, you learn something new everyday. Also, everyone can help out anywhere..Even the Chef can wash dishes and sweep the floor. Open your mind and relax and enjoy your job. If your gonna be so Stubborn, Ignorant, and Uptight, Who don't you just quit and find something that you actually like to do?

By Bakerboy (Bakerboy) on Saturday, September 02, 2000 - 04:37 pm: Edit

Johnboy, I wouldn't want to work where you work. Stop acting like your a Know-it-all. In foodservice, you learn something new everyday. Also, everyone can help out anywhere..Even the Chef can wash dishes and sweep the floor. Open your mind and relax and enjoy your job. If your gonna be so Stubborn, Ignorant, and Uptight, Who don't you just quit and find something that you actually like to do?

By W.DeBord on Saturday, September 02, 2000 - 06:56 pm: Edit

I'd rather work next to and depend on anyone who is suffering from depression and a host of other illnesses then the millions of employees in this industry who have drug and alchol problems!

I couldn't begin to count the number of times someone has missed work because of over drinking the night before and everyone has had to cover for them. Or they couldn't get a ride to work because they lost their liensce. Or they are at work but their useless/hung-over and more in the way then helpful. Or the guy who just blew a joint and can't consentrate.

Watching someone with a problem has not taught you much. Apparently you could use to open your mind and a book.

By Jonnyboy on Saturday, September 02, 2000 - 07:28 pm: Edit

So debord that person with depressionwhen they can't get out of bed for two weeks what do you do with them then. Then you'll want the hung over guy at least he only missed one day at a time.Bakerboy i love what i'm doing i've been doing it since i was 14 why would i want to quit? And what exactly would make you think i don't like what i do. Sure everyone can learn from everyone else when did i say i couldn't? I was just trying to point out that in my experience people with depression/anxiety will not do very well in the kitchen until theyu are able to deal with their problems.My mind is open what book do you recomend?

By Ramodeo (Ramodeo) on Saturday, September 02, 2000 - 08:06 pm: Edit

jonnyboy - you barely deserve a response on this issue, but I've got to. Have you dealt with a panic/anxiety disorder or depression personally? If you have, and managed to overcome it all by yourself, then you didn't have the same kind of disorder that the people who need medication to correct a chemical imbalance do.

Quote - Jonnyboy on Saturday, September 2, 2000 - 01:11 am: "If you can't fix the problem yourself no doctor or drug is gonna do it for you. It's all in your mind depression(serious everyone gets bummed out)anxiety, cronic fatigue, epstien bar(sp?) they are all about mind over matter as it is with just about anything wrong with your body"

I can't remember the last time I heard or read such a pathetically misinformed statement. No matter what you have observed secondhand, you are in no position to make such comments - or did I miss it when you gave you credentials as a mental health professional?

I have dealt with depression successfully, using a number of different techniques, including therapy, medication, spiritual searching and growth, pulling myself up by my bootstraps, exercise, getting back out in the workforce, and others. I was very close to suicide when I did what was absolutely the hardest thing I have ever done. It made childbirth look like a walk in the park. I asked for help. Until you've been there, I don't think you can understand what it's like. I lived with depression for my whole adult life, on and off. It is a debilitating disease, and the people suffering (and suffering is the right word - it IS constant pain and suffering) from it deserve our compassion, not our derision for being weak and drug dependant. Is insulin addictive just because diabetics have to have it every day to lead normal happy, healthy lives???

By Ramodeo (Ramodeo) on Saturday, September 02, 2000 - 08:21 pm: Edit

As for the perfectionism issue - I think the semantics have gotten a little twisted - I apologize for not writing more clearly.

The perfectionism I have been referring to is the kind that is obsessive and prevents an employee from doing an efficient job. There is such a thing as spending too much time on a project. The standard of excellence that needs to be met for each operation should be clear and should always be met, of course. I'm not talking about sending out sub standard food, or something you're not proud of. I am saying that there are creative ways to work quickly enough to meet a clients special requests and still provide them with an excellent product. I guess what I mean is that there are a lot of people out there who, because of inexperience, or narrow mindedness or obsessiveness, need to learn to work more quickly and efficiently. They need to learn how to put out that party platter that they would prefer to spend two hours on in 30 minutes and have it meet the clients expectations of excellence.

And yes, most contracts put a cutoff time for increases in guest count, and most clients would understand if you said no, but I know from personal experience that if you can go the extra mile and provide "excellent" products and services, you will be rewarded with loyal clients who will bring you even more business. I'd much rather have that situation instead of just "surviving".

By Jonnyboy on Saturday, September 02, 2000 - 10:25 pm: Edit

The eagles did a great song it's called get over it. Depression is not a disease it is a weakness. Second hand experience yes but i remember rocking my mom when she went through it. After years of drugs, psyciatrists, spiritual counselling ( all of which was crap) she finally over came it her self. The whole mental health feild is crap this is a feild that holds no one responsible for anything they do. You killed somone well your mom probably put socks you didn't like on you when you were a kid, Beating youre child? dad shouldn't have made you eat that broccoli, really messed you up. It's all about mental toughness what i've seen in my life should have messed me up but i refused to let myself be pulled down by that crap.

By Chefrick (Chefrick) on Saturday, September 02, 2000 - 11:18 pm: Edit

JONNYBOY,
YOU COME OFF SOUNDING LIKE AN IRRESONSIBLE,EGOTISTICAL,SELF-ABSORBED DR.SOUS. APARENTLY YOU STILL HAVE ALOT OF MENTAL HEALTH ISSUES TO WORK THROUGH YOURSELF.A BOOK FOR YOU TO READ, (TRY I'M - OK YOUR OK) OR ARE YOU UNABLE TO UNDERSTAND WORDS OVER THREE SYLLABLES.YOUR RANTING AND RAVEING HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH THE ORIGIAL TOPIC,THEY JUST MAKE YOU SOUND STUPID AND LOST IN YOUR OWN SELF-IMPORTANCE.YOUR VIEWS ON THE MOTHER SAUCES- WHAT ARE YOU THE POT WASHER?,OR DID YOU GET YOUR TRAINING WATCHING BOBBY FLAY ON CHILLIN' AND GRILLIN'

By Ramodeo (Ramodeo) on Sunday, September 03, 2000 - 05:35 am: Edit

jonnyboy-I'm sorry to hear that your mother suffered from depression. Congratulation to her on her recovery. (But I will never believe that the years of therapy and medication and spiritual counseling had no effect.)

I don't blame my depression on what happened to me as a child. That has nothing to do with it. It wouldn't have mattered if I had had the worlds best, most loving and caring parenting. Depression is a disease. It takes over your entire being. As for those suffering from it being weak?!? I doubt you could get through it. People who go on living and working and parenting while clinically depressed have a strength you couldn't dream of.

By andigold on Sunday, September 03, 2000 - 08:44 am: Edit

What a thread. 2 comments from me, first all cooking is a trade off between time and quality, we could all do it better if we had more time, perfect is a word I've heard not a dish I've seen. Second my wife is on medication for depression and she is the toughest, bravest most self reliant person I know. SHE HAS A MEDICAL PROBLEM and the drugs help. This is a genetic problem and my 9 year old son is also on anti depressants. I know you will not listen to what other people say but an open mind is the only one worth having. Good luck Johnny boy I hope your future is better than your past. Andrew

By raine on Sunday, September 03, 2000 - 10:43 am: Edit

Since we are dealing with perfection. How do you cope with the other side of the issue? People who don't care, won't care or just don't have what it takes to deliver quality. I'm sure everyone has/had them. They won't quit, and they won't make an effort to improve. With the job market the way it is, firing is rarely done. Holding on to dead weight is common practice now.

By W.DeBord on Sunday, September 03, 2000 - 11:37 am: Edit

Jonnyboy I can't believe you believe what your writing. I think your enjoying the attention, having a little fun. If not, your not worth the effort of trying to get you to understand.

To everyone else: Obsessive perfectionism is a compulsive disorder. It's the compulsive part that is the problem not being a perfectionist. Talking about perfectionism is fine but it's really another topic. The chemical inbalance is turned off like a light switch with prozac in the person I know. There are no side effects emotionally or physically you could detect in this person. I know it's equal to a cure for cancer for him.

There are too many foolish people like Johnnyboy who hurt and embarass people who have real problems. Shame on you, can't you just keep your ignorance to your-self? Anyway, I'm proud to see how many people here stand up to these kinds of hurtful people!

By Jonnyboy on Sunday, September 03, 2000 - 12:19 pm: Edit

well i'm not gonna throw any more fuel on the fire we can just agree to disagree. But i find it sort of amusing/ironic that after reading the post on organic produce you were all so concerned about minute traces of pesticides but are telling people to take prozac? This "safe drug" has left my mother with permanatly slurred speech (she was prescribed it years ago) There are some people that this drug works for but most i have seen are zombies this is no better it is sideways movement.Like drug addiction you can't beat it until you beleive it in your mind and the medication etc. won't help until you beleive you can do it yourself.If i have offended anyone i am sorry i just get i little touchy about this subject and have a different perspective than most.

By Yankee on Sunday, September 03, 2000 - 01:55 pm: Edit

Personally, I could care less about minute traces of pesticides on my produce. I was raised on Kool-Aid and Chef Boy-ar-dee ravioli. My fate was sealed long ago.

Mother sauces aside, I think we are living in an over prescribed society. I've personally seen prozac make someone worse (violent) and make another person more depressed.

Every person is different. My brother in law is "imbalanced." He lives with a cocktail of drugs to keep him steady. By all accounts it seems to help him keep it together. On the other hand, he now has a medical excuse to back up his occasional suicide note. This combination works quite well when hitting up dad for money to fund the habitual "out of work" lifestyle. I call it emotional blackmail. But that's just me. I should care more, but to me it smells too much.

Some people do need prozac, etc, to keep it together. My own hack opinion is that too many other people use these drugs as a crutch so they end up relying on the drugs rather than themselves.

By Bakerboy (Bakerboy) on Sunday, September 03, 2000 - 02:52 pm: Edit

I think I will try to change the subject- slightly. I have been "learning disabled" since before high-school. I was put in a "special" class for the slow kids. I stayed in that class for a couple years and then one day they decided to throw me back into regular classes for some reason. They never told me why. They sent me to the "special study hall" to get help on homework and all schoolwork assigned to me. I know from my own experience, not from someone telling me that it just takes me extra time to learn and understand things than others. They didn't know much about "special" education when I was in school, they just called me slow. Still today, I feel I learn slower than others, but on the other hand I make up for it because I am more consistant than anyone elese once I learn something new.

By Yankee on Sunday, September 03, 2000 - 04:10 pm: Edit

When I was in elementary school I used to go visit Dr. Soandso every few weeks. A few others kids in my class went as well, so I thought it was kind of cool. We got to paint pictures, talk about ink blots, the usual.

Turns out "they" thought I was a bit "off."

Nixon was still in office and there was no prozac or redilin. Thank God. I finally got over what ever it was they thought was wrong with me. In retrospect I was probably a hyper kid with a short attention span. Now I'd be "attention deficit syndrom" and get put on something to slow me down or speed me up.

By Yankee on Sunday, September 03, 2000 - 04:18 pm: Edit

I think a lot of "special ed" kids just can't cope with traditional and inane teaching methods. Any moron with nothing but a great memory can pass through school with flying colors. Someone else with a slight speach or reading disability gets dumped and labled "slow." It's pure crap.

Most schools still use the "sponge" method of teaching: I show you, then you show me. There is very little critical or creative thinking being taught. The addition of drugs and the creation of "Stepford Kids" just makes it worse.

But, lets see how those views change once my kids reach school age...

By Ramodeo (Ramodeo) on Sunday, September 03, 2000 - 05:57 pm: Edit

Yankee - I agree with you that there is a lot of over prescribing of medications intended for specific mental illnesses. Personally, I have never taken Prozac, other medications worked for me. But since you seem to be a rational person, I will ask you to examine your attitude towards this subject and think about separating what are really two issues:

1)Overmedication, (I also think this a huge problem) which has many causes ranging from over worked doctors, to HMO's refusing to pay for mental health counseling, to parents who demand pills from their doctors (be they anti-depressants or anti-biotics), to understaffed schools who require certain children to be medicated so they can have 35 children to 1 teacher.... and

2)those people who really must have medication to live a normal healthy life. These are two separate issues, and as you said, each person is different. I'm afraid when we speak in generalities about both issues together, we lump together all people who take medications for mental illness. That's not productive for either issue.

Overcoming a mental illness, or an abused childhood, or a learning disability require great strength and determination, and also usually help from others. (I personally believe accepting help from others is a good thing. It gives you more human connections and that only makes your life better JMHO.)

As for your brother in law - there seems like ther may be issues there above and beyond the imbalances that have been helped by medication, and perhaps some just plain old disfunction happening between him and his dad. These issues are not caused by the fact that he's taking medication.

Those who truly use medication as a "crutch" probably could be helped in other ways, but either don't have access to that help, or have issues separate from the reasons for medication that prevent them from getting better on their own.

By Chefrick on Sunday, September 03, 2000 - 09:16 pm: Edit

TO ALL,
I can relate to the special education issue, when I was a child my mother had me put in special ed. classes. She said to all she met that I was brain damaged and slow. In the sixth grade a teacher noticed somthing important... that I couldn't see the board from the front row! and that I was dislexic(seeing and writing backwards)with glasses and a tutor I excelled and moved on to live a productive life.In college I maintained a 4.0 grade average. Now I have a new obstical to cross ,A few years ago I found out that I had diabetes,went blind and thought all I had worked so hard for was lost.I have since regained my sight(what the dr.s called a miracle)and because of my "new problem" I must take medications to calm me down when my blood sugars go haywire. I used to get very grouchy,moody and not a very nice person to be around,the meds help me to be my normal lovable self. THANK GOD FOR SCIENCE!!!