I would like advise from any of you who have or currently are assistants.

My problems are these...

I have an extemely small one counter area. It would be hard to have two people working at the same time unless we worked PERFECTLY in sync with each other to complete tasks.

If our hours slightly over lap I could give them directions for them to prep, cut, tray items and put away my product at the end of my day, etc.... If I mix items (like cookies) can I trust them to portion, bake and put away, etc...? or is that looking for problems?


My job at a country club is different than alot of situations. There is not a routine, items made cover a wide range. I'm not looking to train a pastry chef in how to bake, I need a worker not a chef. Besides baking all the items I cut them and either plate them or tray them too. That takes alot of time.

Can anyone give me some ideas of how to set this up so it would work to my best advantage?

By Gerard (Gerard) on Wednesday, May 03, 2000 - 09:07 am: Edit

You'll have to work together at least long enough to assess whether they can work unsupervised and establish consistency of the product.
Figga out what they are capable of first then decide how best to use them, make sure they understand flexibility of schedule is a must right from the beginning.

By d. on Wednesday, May 03, 2000 - 01:07 pm: Edit

W., Gerard is right. My assistant is wonderful wherein he can make pastry cream, lemon curd,roll out dough, bake cookies and certain brownies and cakes. He also doubles as my kick-ass dishwasher. I leave him to do all the cutting of bars(we do quite a lot)and cakes and traying up cookie platters, and I'm slowly adding on to his duties. I do know his limitations since I've worked with him for 3 years(not a very good eye for color and size, doesn't understand hows and whys of baking,), but I try to teach him slowly and regularly so that he gets it(simple things) and it really helps me a lot when we are slammed. Just yesterday I was teaching him how to mold mini florentine cups(200pcs.). He overcooked them a bit but got the hang of it after about 25 pieces. I'm going to make him keep on doing it until he gets the hang of it. Patience is definitely the key here.

By Panini (Panini) on Wednesday, May 03, 2000 - 06:21 pm: Edit

He or She will only be as good as you teach them. Gerard is right that you'll have to work side by side untill your comfortable.
Assistant? Helper? Make sure you figure out if you want an assistant/sanitation[cleaninig up after you leave] or a sanitation/assistant.
A helper I hired at a country club in 1991 now owns a portion and runs my wholesale bakery.
Good luck

By CountryBaker on Wednesday, May 03, 2000 - 11:35 pm: Edit

I only have one assistant, my daughter, she and I have worked together for so long that she can do almost anything. If we are especially rushed we have a girl to come in and do cleanup. I have tried others but do not have the patience to train someone who knows nothing. I had one girl who couldn't understand why cookies need to be uniform in size. Or why bread dough needs to be weighed. Space is not a problem, the problem is that I like everthing done a certain way. I want things to look and taste the same next week as they do this week and my customers expect that. Good luck in finding someone you can work with.

By CountryBaker on Wednesday, May 03, 2000 - 11:39 pm: Edit

I only have one assistant, my daughter, she and I have worked together for so long that she can do almost anything. If we are especially rushed we have a girl to come in and do cleanup. I have tried others but do not have the patience to train someone who knows nothing. I had one girl who couldn't understand why cookies need to be uniform in size. Or why bread dough needs to be weighed. Space is not a problem, the problem is that I like everthing done a certain way. I want things to look and taste the same next week as they do this week and my customers expect that. Good luck in finding someone you can work with.

By W.DeBord on Thursday, May 04, 2000 - 10:19 am: Edit

I need a plan when I insist on more help. There is a Mexican cook/dishwasher who currently helps me (too rarely to make a dent). I'm trying to decide if I should push to use him (they're more likely to say yes to that)or insist on someone else.

Draw back to using him...language (although he understands most of the time but occasionally plays a game of not understanding to avoid work), he may not have my best interests guiding him (not alot of freindship between us). He can at times really mess with me by not doing a good job or hiding in the break room. Also the chef is more likely to use him when he's short handed and leave me again with-out help.

Postives...he knows his way around the kitchen and has all the skills I would need (when he tries he can be very good)! Hours aren't a problems and when I didn't need much help he could still get the hours by helping the chef.

Go for him or forget it?

By Yankee on Thursday, May 04, 2000 - 02:52 pm: Edit

Is there any way you can give him things to do on certain days at specific times? Limit his usage to one or two things. Tell the chef you only need him for four hours (?) a week and lock him in to that time and don't budge.

I had a really great experience with a guy I took from the dish room. The guy worked like crazy. Over time he could do almost everything on the station (he opened the station in the AM). He went from zero to doing daily yeast doughnuts from scratch, yeast babas, pastry cream and anglaise stuff, work with geletine, souffles, turn ice cream and sorbet and run the station at lunch. The finer stuff was off, but the guy worked like crazy. He also had another job in the afternoons. Try getting that out of any recent CIA grads for nine bucks an hour!

He was the exception, not the rule. If they pull the language "no se" bs to get out of doing something, I would be less inclined to waste time with him. Avoid those with the male/female machismo attitude.

Good luck.

By Panini (Panini) on Thursday, May 04, 2000 - 06:49 pm: Edit

DeBord,
Do you have access to your numbers? Do you know what your labor cost % is in your bakery .It should run around 26-33% in a club. Get yourself prepared before you go to the chef for permanent help. Try to figure what % of sales comes from your bakery.If you do b'fast items,all desserts, wedding cakes etc. it should be about 18-22%
Example
1,000,000 sales ---18%= 180,000 to bakery
25%= 40,000 labor
Just an idea, because most of the time if you don't do your homework the chef will always feel he or she is doing you a favor by giving you help.
When in reality you've earned it.

By Ramodeo (Ramodeo) on Thursday, May 04, 2000 - 06:51 pm: Edit

W. - With what you've told us about your kitchen, I wouldn't use the dishwasher if you don't have to. His cons way outweigh his pros. The things he has going for him are things the right person could pick up quickly. And the negatives you mentioned could be a real problem. Playing head games like doing lousy work and hiding are things I wouldn't have any patience for.

In your situation I would prefer a female. Maybe then the chef wouldn't steal your assistant away when he thinks he needs help.

In my experience with working with assistants - which is limited to the students/interns we have constantly cycling thru our kitchen - just look for someone bright and quick who expresses some interest in what you're doing. "Kitchen Intelligence" is by far the most important quality. Some people've got it and some don't. Period.

I have worked with some kids who are sooooo frustrating! You explain something to them, slowly, and they indicate they understand, and then they go and do it absolutely wrong. Or you explain the importance of portion control with every project you give them, and give them the tools they need to portion correctly and they never get any better at it.

Then there are others who get it the first time you say it, who pay attention to what's going on around them, who learn with every new thing they do...That's the kind of person you want, whether they have specific baking experience or not.

I would highly recommend a trial day. Others have suggested that in other posts and I've done it with a couple of my possible replacements. You can see alot in a day's work. Work habits, overall speed, personality. It's good for both of you.

My 2 cents. Good Luck!

By W.DeBord on Saturday, May 06, 2000 - 08:12 am: Edit

After telling boss a dishwasher was fired over the weekend (when she was gone), because he refused to help me. Boss told me "that's bs, they still aren't helping you? I need to get you a full time helper who does nothing but help you."

Amazing five minute conversation!

Anyway new question...I was thinking I'd contact the different cooking schools and Junior Colleges in the area looking for a student interested in baking. Do schools have intern programs?

By Mikeh (Mikeh) on Saturday, May 06, 2000 - 10:12 am: Edit

I'm happy to hear that your boss is finally starting to listen to you.

I believe that many of the private cooking schools have externship programs, usually around 1 term (4 months) in length. These can be either paid or unpaid, although in today's economy they are mostly paid. I'm not sure about junior college programs, although you could always talk to an instructor and ask for a private recommendation.

By Panini (Panini) on Saturday, May 06, 2000 - 04:56 pm: Edit

intern an apprenticship programs are very common here, the pay scales are usually quite low. Like minimum. This works out well.The only requirements we have is that the intern move from station to station and that you don't use them exclusivly for one or two things. We also need to be certified to instruct them.

By cindy on Sunday, May 07, 2000 - 11:41 am: Edit

Ms. DeBord,
I know that CLC has an externship as does Kendall. I looked over the CLC prgram and I wasn't impressed though, though they do run a mini-restaurant, and offer externships in your chosen field. CHIC doesn't have an externship, though they have a strictly Pastry/Baking program-that was what I was going to do, so I know all about that.
I'll be moving up there soon, but I don't think I'll have all the qualities of a Culinary school intern. Maybe I'll look you up when I get up there. I hope to be moved in by Mid-July.
Cindy

By W.DeBord on Sunday, May 07, 2000 - 07:39 pm: Edit

Panini you talking about requirements and how this works from experience aren't you? I have no certification at all and at this time (in the summer) I can't begin to think about jumping thru any more hoops. So is this not the way to go?

If I'm not certified, at the least wouldn't the schools be a good place to look for help? What kind of pay is the going rate for a student not recieving credit? Just min.?

By W.DeBord on Sunday, May 07, 2000 - 07:48 pm: Edit

Cindy I will check out your leads, THANK-YOU. Is there a listing of the culinary schools on the internet? How have you found the different programs available in the Chicago area?


Don't sell your abilities short. The most important qualities an intern would have don't have anything to do with cooking or baking skills. The ability to follow directions acurately in a timely manner and to think ahead are the qualities I would look for. It's personality in most respects really, skills can be taught!

By Cindy on Sunday, May 07, 2000 - 08:43 pm: Edit

I'm from Northern IL. So I kinda knew where to look. The instructor at CLC is Cliff Werner, I don't think he's even a chef- not to mention they are not affiliated with ACF. Kendall seemed to have a very good program. You most likely get a good helper from them.They advertise Exec. status witin 2 years, admissions told me that they plan on a baking/pastry assoc. program next year Like I said, CHIC has a Pastry program-I have the catalog,and it seems that a grad would be pretty together. You might want to check local High Schools- I know that my school had an Advanced Foods class(Jr's &Sr's) & you may find a HS student who wants to break into the biz. Of course. There is also Joliet community and ECC, if you want to branch out further. I wouldn't mind talking to you and see if I might be able to help, though I won't be there until July and you must have Wedding season now & need help yesterday. I think I can take direction well and I speak Spanish too! :)
Cindy

By Panini (Panini) on Sunday, May 07, 2000 - 10:02 pm: Edit

W.DeBord,
Yes, I think it is a great way to go.The schools here are associates programs so they require certification, but there there are plenty of students available to work. Just visit the job placement boards at the school or call the school. A lot of students prefer to work in more specialized settings if this is the direction their going.They usually require more money to keep them. Determine the spread in pay with your chef and start them low with incentives if they work out.Hell, we all started at the bottom, did'nt we?
On a different note.I just brought somebody on from California,great resume-some European experience, great portfolio, great personality.Wanted 1.5 x more than I had budgeted and I gave that. I did not bring her in for a production test. STUPID ME!!! Gone yesterday! Don't know who's portfolio or resume they had, but it certainly was not theirs.
Good luck in your search. Don't be hasty, be picky.
panini

By W.DeBord on Monday, May 08, 2000 - 07:54 am: Edit

Panini I'm not at the same level as you with what I have to offer or need, I think? So I have alot of questions I hope you have a moment to help?!

I'm not thinking the person I want needs any skills? But maybe I'm too far removed to see clearly?

Maybe I need to ask more questions....do you think I need someone with training to follow my dirrections on how to cut cakes, tray items, portion (scoop) items, wrap and put away things, watch a buffet for plates and icecream, no baking but maybe watch the oven in a pinch.

I understand why you would want a production test, how would you have set that up? I don't want an independent worker now but as time goes on it would be nice if they could plate up on the easy partys with-out me being at work.

By Cindy on Monday, May 08, 2000 - 08:16 am: Edit

I thought of some more schools in the area. There is Washburne trade School, I don't know much about it. I think there are some in Wisconsin too. The site I'm using is www.culinaryschools.com I thought you'd like to know some of my sources.
cindy

By W.DeBord on Monday, May 08, 2000 - 08:31 am: Edit

If the students prefer a more specialized setting that means I have to sell my skills to interest them? My competition for employees I think would be the major hotels in Chicago.

I can offer one on one learning. I do make a wide variety of items but don't most places?

I don't have any equipment though! One oven (with no features), a rolling pin, a cuisinart, two kitchen-aids, a hobart and a one door reach in. I don't suppose telling a kid if they can produce in this setting they could work anywhere would be enough to sway them away from the fancy hotels? How do I get their interest?

By momoreg on Monday, May 08, 2000 - 09:47 am: Edit

Perhaps you can show them a portfolio of your work. Then they can decide if you have somehing to offer them. By the same token, maybe they can volunteer a days' work, before you commit yourself.

By Cindy on Monday, May 08, 2000 - 10:12 am: Edit

Ms. DeBord,
I think you might want to talk to Mr. Werner. He would know what the CLC students would want. The other schools might be a little "highbrow". When I said specialized, I meant someone who wants to work bakery VS Italian food.
I would think that one on one would have it's merits, though I understand where your coming from as a person on the outside looking in. I remember reading how small your kitchen was. I didn't realize how small, though if you can do production in that small space, I would think you have time & space management skills to pass on. Like I said, I really don't know much about the business, but I'm looking at this case as a student.
Cindy

By Panini (Panini) on Monday, May 08, 2000 - 05:37 pm: Edit

W.DeBord,
I might have more in the way of facilities to offer but you have as much or more to offer in the way of knowledge. I would suggest to you, to hire someone with little experience but wants to learn baking. An assistant/sanitation will leave you for .50 hr. more. There are plenty of people young and old that want to start their career in food service. You are a wonderful alternative to expensive schools. Sell youself to someone. Show them your portfolio and things like that. Most of all don't lower the bar,look at this person as a future replacement for youself. If they are worth it, invest the time. You'll enjoy your days off more, knowing all is well at work.
I threw in my last hiring blunder as chit chat,
nothing more. You don't have to production test.Go with your gut, and leave yourself an out, if thing don't work out, move on to the next hire.
Godd luck with this, one more thing, I suggest that you look at this person that someday they will do the work your doing and not the work your to experienced to do or the work you don't want to do.

By CountryBaker on Monday, May 08, 2000 - 09:54 pm: Edit

I would take someone on a trial period. You need to be compatable to get along in a small space. As Panini said leave yourself an out in case they don't work out. I think you would find a middle age woman a good bet. But a mature teen might also do, if they are willing to follow instructions. Good Luck.

By W.DeBord on Tuesday, May 09, 2000 - 07:34 am: Edit

Thank-you all for your help!!!! I don't know enough about hiring practices to know how I leave myself that "way out" if they don't seem to work out. Aren't all people hired with a 30 day trail period? Even so, I've never heard of someone being released at that time. I better talk it over with my manager.

Panini it's kind of funny because other people have advised me not to pick someone who could one day be my replacement. Not that I'm worried, this is a hard enviroment to survive in (major understatement)! Actually I'm looking forward to working with a student. I'm sure I'll learn plenty from this.

By W.DeBord on Tuesday, May 09, 2000 - 07:40 am: Edit

Cindy when you get to Chicago write me a post here. If my assistant position is open then, I'd like to see you apply for it. Otherwise I'll try to help you find a good place to start.

By Mikeh (Mikeh) on Tuesday, May 09, 2000 - 08:28 am: Edit

W. DeBord,

Perhaps something you can offer to any prospective employee that a big hotel won't is a little creative freedom. You don't seem to suffer from an ego problem and you're always looking to try out new ideas. While I don't know this for a fact, I suspect that an intern at a hotel would end up plating a set menu or doing prep and production on standardized recipes.

By W.DeBord on Tuesday, May 09, 2000 - 08:36 am: Edit

Oh yeah, definately, if they need to learn an item I can work it into my menus to give them practice. Like choc. work or let them design plates etc... is that what you meant?

By Panini (Panini) on Tuesday, May 09, 2000 - 09:59 pm: Edit

W.DeBord,
The training of someone is a good question for another thread. I think you'll find that sucessful people in this industry train with the intention of replacement. Your job security is in your knowledge.If you cap your employees you will not free yourself to manage.I was always criticized by the chefs in the hotels and clubs, because my kitchens ran by themselves. Of course management and ownership viewed it different.I now sell and make money off those chefs, and they are still in the same jobs.
Take this with a grain of salt, it's just my 2 cents.
godd luck
panini

By Gerard (Gerard) on Sunday, May 14, 2000 - 05:43 am: Edit

Panini,
"I just brought somebody on from California,great resume-some European experience, great portfolio, great personality.Wanted 1.5 x more than I had budgeted and I gave that. I did not bring her in for a production test. STUPID ME!!! Gone yesterday! "

sounds like a pastry chef.

Heres what I found to work best, students have dreams of being top pastry chefs and are in a big hurry, IF you find the best ones they will put in some time and they'll be gone in a flash.
I find people who have no ego problems and are easy to train, if they eventually go off they'll be well prepared anyway because they weren't in a big rush to learn. Culinary grads with loans to pay back aren't going to stick around long because they can't afford to and even if you give them the money they'll be drawn to the glitz.
Its a problem.

By W.DeBord on Sunday, May 14, 2000 - 07:11 am: Edit

I've never really worked with people that weren't much more than temp. help. For years I catered with culinary school kids and taught the current waitress how to help me plate (some housewives can hussle!). I'm not sure I want someone to stay ALONG time. After awhile the fact that they don't listen and take direction or they talk too much starts to get to you. Next please, is fine with me.

I don't mean to be cruel but alot of you probably know what I mean.

By Panini (Panini) on Sunday, May 14, 2000 - 07:23 am: Edit

Gerard,
You are absolutely right. I usually try to bring people up with me and train them our way so they don't use the short cuts.This one was just a convienience hire. I'm swampped with wedding cakes, she had a great rap, and I went for it. To late in the season to hire anyone, so I learned a good lesson here.
I think she was very happy with the money, and I certainly don't mind paying someone what their worth.I was stunned at the time it took to decorate.5 hrs to build 1- 5 stacked, simple decor.
My current people build 3-4 cakes in this time and their in the $12-$15 range + %.
panini

By Raine on Sunday, May 14, 2000 - 11:45 am: Edit

From an employees stand point, I would never accept a job that didn't test first. It says to me you don't care if they can do the more challenging work, and all your looking for is a warm body who will get stuck with all the sh*t work. It is easier to negotiate pay and then decide if the person has the speed and talent to earn it. Resumes are never accurate.
W.DeBord is looking for sh*t work employee. Anyone with half a brain will do, it wuold be better to look for someone with a good work ethic. They are very hard to find, but easy to train, and worth a lot more than some fly by night hot shot with an ego problem.

By Panini (Panini) on Sunday, May 14, 2000 - 06:37 pm: Edit

Raine,
It is easier to negotiate pay and then decide if they can earn it? I don't think so. Employers should put alot of weight on resumes. Thats what represents you to the company.I personally feel there should be legal ramifications if one mis represents themselves. Employers loose great monies when an applicant lies and can't perform the job intended.
I think the advice to DeBord was to find someone trainable.
I for one don't have the classification sh-- work.
every job is important. Actually most sucessful businesses respect the sh-- work. You may produce the most beautiful meal, but if you don't have clean plates to serve it on, it's worthless. Some of our sh-- workers make as much as pastry cooks, they are just as valuable.
Good luck to you
panini

By Raine on Sunday, May 14, 2000 - 11:42 pm: Edit

I agree that they are valuable,and everybody (including me) has to do sh*t work everyday.That is what makes it work and not play. Most everybody is trainable, and from what I read, it sounded like W.DeBord wants someone to do the plating, panning and sanitation (i.e.the sh*t jobs).This requires someone with a reliable work ethic. If she want to mentor a graduate, I think it will be more work for her/him if grads are only temporary. It would be more like babysitting.
All resumes reflect the good qualities, I have never seen one that says "I am slow,lazy,with a bad attitude." Just because a person has a degree does not mean they are qualified for the job. As for portfolios...they reflect the end product, not the time, difficulty or mistakes required to finish it. The only semi-reliable thing is a letter of recommendation.

By Raine on Monday, May 15, 2000 - 12:05 am: Edit

As for the other issue... Money is half of what motivates an employee, the other half is work environment. If you can't offer the first the second doesn't matter. I can only hope your pastry cooks don't know what your dish washers are making. Sounds like an ego clash waiting to happen.

By W.DeBord on Monday, May 15, 2000 - 08:55 am: Edit

I recently discussed my resume with my chef. He didn't read it and really didn't understand what it was! His interviewing techinques and everyone else I've ever interviewed with was always totally what they need and can you start now? Other interviews consisted of meeting with the chef and club manager. The chefs mouth drops open when he see's my photos, while the manager pulls his pants up higher than his waist and sticks his chest out saying "well what can you do for me?" (while the chef turns red that the manager doesn't get it from my photos).

Job interviews???from what I've seen, don't qualify the person with conversation. It's, we need someone, I'll take your word that you can do the job, we need a body now! when can you start.

They don't ask you about your skills, speed, knowledge, work ethic etc... Then god forbid your not stupid and you ask about their schedule, number of parties etc...they aways give a false sweetened version (of some other place).

By Panini (Panini) on Monday, May 15, 2000 - 03:49 pm: Edit

Raine,
You make good points,my last hire had letters of recomendations from European, American houses.I really felt the they were over qualified.I put alot in first impressions.I might be more careful in the future,
My whole staff knows what each other is making and they all get a % bonus. A pastry cook loves to have clean equipment,preped mise en place, a helping hand. Of course the pastry cook or decorator get a larger %. This system is the only way to go in a small business enviornment. There are no ego's in our business.
Good luck to you,
panini

By W.DeBord on Tuesday, May 16, 2000 - 07:55 am: Edit

It sounds like one of the discriptions of communism, Panini. I'm more than a bit supprised that that type of system works (although it sounds ideal). I do not know what you mean by a 96 bonus?
It must then be the people you've hired because a random group of people over time can't work for the common cause with-out ego clashes and resentments building.

It's natural that all people don't work equally hard. Even if you never hear anyone vocalize resentments they lay there barely under the surface of most lead employees.

By W.DeBord on Tuesday, May 16, 2000 - 08:24 am: Edit

Panini as an experienced chef and employer you missed judged your new hire. Looking back what advise can you give to avoid making that mistake?


Really, what do you think are the most important questions to ask a prospective employee? Also how would any of you structure a job testing?

By Panini (Panini) on Tuesday, May 16, 2000 - 05:31 pm: Edit

W.DeBord,
Communism? % is my cheap computers way of saying percent.I should use 0/0.
There are really no ego's here. everybody owns a piece of the pie. Base pays are open information.
The percentages are not. That is what inspires competition. Set you goals and try to achieve them. You are right that some people work harder than others. This is their choice and their 0/0 reflects that. I have an employee that chooses to cruz. He makes base most of the time, he likes that, he has a wonderful personality and is a pleasure to see every morning.
AVIOD MAKING A MISTAKE.1. I was hurried to fill a need. 2.I brought my interview to a personal level. 3.Asked about previous properties instesd of asking specific questions about what I saw in the portfolio.4. Told them what I needed instead of what they needed. Thank you for asking, I really did everything I know not to do.
Sometimes you just miss judge.
If your going the less experienced route than a test is probably not going to help. Although a personality test may help. I'm sure there is a web site with one. You'll ask all the right questions. You know what your needs are. Maybe set up a probationary period starting with a lower pay and raise after 90day review. This leaves you an out.
good luck
panini

By Raine on Tuesday, May 16, 2000 - 06:59 pm: Edit

W.DeBord
To set up a test for decorator start with uniced cake, bowl of icing, tips and bags. Then walk away for however long you think it should take for them to finish cake. This way you can judge speed, creativity and accuracy. This can also be used for any every day task they would be expected to perform independantly.
Also lot of my former and current job offer a % of the profit/manager bonus. Can be based on seniority or position. I've also had job where I was paid per cake tier, I recieved % of cake price.

By Raine on Tuesday, May 16, 2000 - 07:43 pm: Edit

Panini,
I have to agree with W.DeBord. Many times a person will not openly display or verbalize hostility at work, it tends to add more stress to an already tense situation.

By Panini (Panini) on Wednesday, May 17, 2000 - 04:01 pm: Edit

Raine,
"tense situation". There is no tense situation. We all like to come to work everyday. It's unfortunate that ya'll have not been in this situation. I have experienced all of what you talk about and have worked very hard to eliminate that.I don't know how else to explain it.
As for the decorator test, I use this method but give just cake and icing. My test is based on how well the adapt, finding tips and bags on their own with out asking,setting themselves up and finishing is more important to me than the actual decorating.The decorating is important but alot of people are nervous at first.
Actually only one decorator hire in two years the rest have move3d up from other positions.
Good luck DeBord, you'll get somebody good.

By Panini (Panini) on Wednesday, May 17, 2000 - 04:01 pm: Edit

Raine,
"tense situation". There is no tense situation. We all like to come to work everyday. It's unfortunate that ya'll have not been in this situation. I have experienced all of what you talk about and have worked very hard to eliminate that.I don't know how else to explain it.
As for the decorator test, I use this method but give just cake and icing. My test is based on how well the adapt, finding tips and bags on their own with out asking,setting themselves up and finishing is more important to me than the actual decorating.The decorating is important but alot of people are nervous at first.
Actually only one decorator hire in two years the rest have move3d up from other positions.
Good luck DeBord, you'll get somebody good.

By Raine on Wednesday, May 17, 2000 - 08:25 pm: Edit

Panini,
I envy your utopian environment. You should think about running for president.
Interesting testing technic, I like it.
So many employers would rather hire in than up, How do you train them, decorating is not something you can learn overnight.

By W.DeBord on Thursday, May 18, 2000 - 07:59 am: Edit

I have found your information and advise very helpful!

I missed alot when I negoiated for my job! The description I was given was nothing close to the real job (heck, chef told me they all spoke English except one guy HA HA HA). So how do you negoiate/cover your back when the information given is or could be false (besides moving on to the next job when you find out it was false)?


I do know I'll be honest with the person I interview, but I don't have the power to offer any incentives etc...and I really can't test an entry level person (but I'm storing your information in my head for the future).


I do wonder about testing people for this reason...I'm not sure I would pass. Meaning I may not do things in the time or style you require but I assure you with a bit of guidance I would be able to follow/copy what you want. Jordan didn't make every basketball team he tried out for.....

That's just life you don't always get it right?!

By Yankee on Saturday, May 20, 2000 - 03:15 am: Edit

I'm about to replace a long term, super qualified assistant with a line cook.

She's got heart, but I doubt she has a clue otherwise. Promote from within. Another project.

It's kind of funny, though, some of the resumes I got. One from a recent med school grad. She didn't like the work and is now about to enter a culinary school to start over. The other was from this guy with an MS and PHD in civic planning. Looks like he did public service for 10 years, then bailed to France to take classes at Lenotre and start over.

My girlfriend hired this woman a few months back who was a former investment banker, and was just finishing up pastry school. She was great, but had to give it up due the financial mess left upon her by an evil ex-boyfriend and return to banking. Thing is, she still wants to come in on weekends because she loves the work.

Any one else getting these folks mixed in with the usual "fruits and nuts" out there?

By W.DeBord on Saturday, May 20, 2000 - 08:10 am: Edit

Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice shame on me, is that how the saying goes? Management did it's usual, I should have known because they have never yet been good to their word.

I got my new assistant....they need to give the college girl who answers the phones in the office more hours so they thought she could help me to get a few more hours. No conflict of scheduling there! She takes classes at night and doesn't want to work on Sundays/ that's family day. PERFECT ASSISTANT, OH BOY!!!!!

Manager never even called Cooking School as promised....I'm not even suprised any more.

I guess it's time not to be nice any more...girl starts Monday and I should be able to freak her out by Thursday. Start looking for someone else by following Monday.

I can't believe the low quality of Managers in the Chicagoland area. I haven't met one yet that did their job, yet alone managed the people under them!

By Mikeh (Mikeh) on Saturday, May 20, 2000 - 10:10 am: Edit

There are low quality managers all over the map. A month ago my class had to take the National Restaurant Association's hospitality supervision and management course. Coming from my experience and schooling in management, the information was very practical, relevant, and of good quality. Most of the people scoffed at it as academic garbage that doesn't work. They will be the people who are working 20-hour shifts as a retail bakery manager because their turnover is so high that nobody ever gets productive enough to give them some time off.

I'm sorry to hear about your new "help". This job seems too hard for anyone to do well without a passion for it.

By Raine on Saturday, May 20, 2000 - 06:45 pm: Edit

Most managers are too soft, they are more concerned about being your friend, then actually managing. The best manager I ever had was a real b*tch. If you screwed up, she made certian you didn't do it again. Every body went out of their way to do it right the first time to avoid her wrath. There wasn't an ounce of B.S. in this woman.
W.DeBord,
"family day!" in other words she want to have Sundays off so she can go party with her friends on Saturday night. That is so typical of the "slacker" generation. I feel for ya!

By Yankee on Sunday, May 21, 2000 - 02:59 am: Edit

What? I don't see anything wrong with wanting to party on Saturday night, or wanting Sundays off to spend with "family." They just need to find another profession, or a place that's closed on Sunday's, that's all. Who doesn't want these things?

Also, why on earth would you want to waste a whole week "freaking" someone out. Is that what you call a good management skill?

We had to get rid of this guy one time in NYC. So, the chef and pastry chef (both men) took him into the walk in. There, they started to feel each other up and asked this guy to join in. He was gone in five mintues. Very effective time managment. Why take days to do what you can do in minutes? :) Work smarter, not harder!

By Ramodeo (Ramodeo) on Sunday, May 21, 2000 - 08:05 am: Edit

Gee, Yankee, at first I thought you were completely missing the sarcasm...... ;-)

Actually your last paragraph is giving me some ideas for our excrutiating slow prep person....very creative, and you're right, sooo efficient!

By Panini (Panini) on Sunday, May 21, 2000 - 08:38 am: Edit

c'mon guys, that's a law suit waiting to happen.
W.DeBord,
Some unsolicited advice, I think its time you start to look for another house. You seem to be qualified, hard working, informed, ready to learn more, etc. You will never soar like an eagle when you are surrounded by turkeys. I know it's an old saying but it fits here.
Just my 2 cents,
Good luck with your new hire.Don't run her off though, let her leave on her own.Is your bakery pulling enough dollars for you to throw down a ultimatum ? Is there any Club Corp. properties in your area? Do you like the country club atmosphere?
Be patient, Panini

By Raine on Sunday, May 21, 2000 - 07:48 pm: Edit

I don't see anything wrong with sundays off. I get almost every sunday off. But I had to work my ass off for years to merit that privilage.
I hate seeing someone just waltz in and expect to get what everyone else had to work hard for.
W.DeBord,
Definately look for a new job, at least for the moral boost. I'm always looking for a better job, and have refused most of the position accepted for. My job doesn't seem so bad when i compared to what else is out there. Just a thought.

By Ramodeo (Ramodeo) on Sunday, May 21, 2000 - 07:49 pm: Edit

Oh poo, that spoils all the fun, Panini....:-( But you're probably right.....

By Panini (Panini) on Sunday, May 21, 2000 - 08:21 pm: Edit

It may spoil the fun but what about if the guy accepts your offer!!!!

By Yankee on Monday, May 22, 2000 - 08:55 pm: Edit

Me? Miss any sarcasm? Never!

Law suits? I doubt it. This was Manhattan, more than five years ago. You old school folks know exactly what I'm talking about. Pretty brutal. I still laugh at most of it, but was also quite sick and twisted the stuff that went on. If that guy had wanted to join in, we would have burned him with sheet pans, stock, etc., until he quit.

I have worked with chefs in California who came out straight from NYC. They freak when no one respects their hazing. Law suits out here? You bet. The "fruits and nuts" out here don't put up with it, as they shouldn't.

DeBord, I'd walk if I couldn't hire my own staff. Just my two cents.

By W.DeBord on Tuesday, May 23, 2000 - 08:19 am: Edit

Well Panini we have something in common... we both miss-read someones abilities. I can eat my own words. She was the one to "freak me out" the best way...she's got some real possiblities (even if she's only summer help)!

When I talked to her about working with me I asked her if she ever baked. When she said "no" I thought she never set foot in a kitchen and didn't ask more. Turns out she's started in food service at 15, worked for three years at "Great America" becoming a food service manager for them. She's got experience in a kitchen, speaks fluent spanish, plus she's on a 4 year scholarship to a good College (engineering...understands perfection).

She needs time with her family because in the past she worked two full time jobs over the summer and was trying to set aside "family time" actually as a good kid.


No one asked about her background, she didn't volunteer any additional info. just answered what was asked of her. So I failed to ask the right questions!

By Panini (Panini) on Tuesday, May 23, 2000 - 05:58 pm: Edit

Out of all negetives there will be positives.
Good Luck
Panini

By Yankee on Wednesday, May 24, 2000 - 02:37 am: Edit

If not, there's always that "boiling stock down the leg" option. Or better yet, boiling water. Why waste product...oops, sorry!

I always give a tour of the joint when someone comes through looking for work. I show off the place as if it was my house, and let them meet people. Then we talk for a bit away from the kitchen. It gives me a chance to talk through stuff without being distracted. That's when you find out about the "engineering student" kind of stuff if it's not already on their resume.

Then, if they want, they trail for a few hours that night or another night. I like to make them come back a second time. It let's them think a bit more about the position. Even then, I sometimes end up with a slacker.

Best of luck with your engineer.

By Hans (Hans) on Wednesday, May 24, 2000 - 02:29 pm: Edit

Does it make a difference if someone used to be an investment banker, butcher, baker or candlestick maker?
What measure is that to judge the potential?

There are people entering our profession that slaved away for years at a job they hated, usually creative individuals in a paperpusher position.

It takes guts and determination to make a drastic change like this.
These people deserve my admiration, not an unkindly sneer, or worse.

If the love of cooking is there, the basics can be taught in 8-12 weeks, depending on intensity.
Speed and confidence come to those determined individuals much faster than to someone who is still searching for their calling.

An added bonus, usually maturity and dependability.

Attitude is 90 % of the game.

By Rubble (Rubble) on Wednesday, May 24, 2000 - 04:04 pm: Edit

Hey Chef DeBord!

I attend CHIC's baking and pastry certification program and I can safely say that there would be a fair number of students who would love to get more experience. At CHIC, they have a job board and jobs(mostly part-time) get snatched up quickly. I don't know the satisfaction rate, but I thought I toss the idea your way.

P.S. I would love to get hands-on pastry production expereince, but I am prevented by my full-time job. I would like to keep you in mind, though.

By Rubble (Rubble) on Wednesday, May 24, 2000 - 04:04 pm: Edit

Hey Chef DeBord!

I attend CHIC's baking and pastry certification program and I can safely say that there would be a fair number of students who would love to get more experience. At CHIC, they have a job board and jobs(mostly part-time) get snatched up quickly. I don't know the satisfaction rate, but I thought I toss the idea your way.

P.S. I would love to get hands-on pastry production expereince, but I am prevented by my full-time job. I would like to keep you in mind, though.

By W.DeBord on Thursday, May 25, 2000 - 07:55 am: Edit

Hans, if you follow this tread you'll read the person I was given as a helper isn't interested in this field, she's a engineering student not changing fields. And actually creative minds aren't always able to produce fast and acurate results. As a helper, I'd rather have someone who can take my creative lead not someone who wants to lead.

Unforunately sometimes a love of a art (baking in this case) means nothing. Some people are better loving and longing at a distance then entering the field and discovering it really was just meant to be a hobby in their life.


Rubble do most of the students have cars or do they rely on public transportation only? Also do you think they check the employment board later in the summer too?