HELP!
I have to make a 3-4 tier chocolate wedding cake
for an April 8 wedding this year. I do not have
an excellent plain choc. recipe. also, what is the
best way to store and assemble. the wedding is at
6pm, indoors. thanks!

By W.DeBord on Monday, March 20, 2000 - 06:37 pm: Edit

Have you never done wedding cakes before?

By Toots (Toots) on Tuesday, March 21, 2000 - 05:38 pm: Edit

If it were me, and I had the time ( ie..nothign else planned for the day of the wedding ) I would just make the cake that day, decorate it, then deliver it. That way you do not have to worry about storing:). I have a great chocolate recipie, BUT it is a trade secret, since I developed it myself, and I never give it out. Do you have to make it from scratch? If you do not have a recipe already, I would suggest a doctored cake mix. If you are going to try scratch I suggest you try some different recipes between now and then to find one that you and your customer like best. What type of filling is in it? What type of icing? all theis needs to be taken into consideration, when figuring storage.

Amy

By Toots (Toots) on Tuesday, March 21, 2000 - 05:38 pm: Edit

If it were me, and I had the time ( ie..nothign else planned for the day of the wedding ) I would just make the cake that day, decorate it, then deliver it. That way you do not have to worry about storing:). I have a great chocolate recipie, BUT it is a trade secret, since I developed it myself, and I never give it out. Do you have to make it from scratch? If you do not have a recipe already, I would suggest a doctored cake mix. If you are going to try scratch I suggest you try some different recipes between now and then to find one that you and your customer like best. What type of filling is in it? What type of icing? all theis needs to be taken into consideration, when figuring storage.

Amy

By jeee2 on Wednesday, March 22, 2000 - 03:55 am: Edit

only amateurs have secret recipes.

By Doucefrance (Doucefrance) on Wednesday, March 22, 2000 - 06:49 am: Edit

This is why I like working with pros, it's a question of sharing, we learn from each other. This reminds me of the "small mind" bakers I met when I had my bakery in France...If you have a secret recipe you're not going to share, why talk about it?
Helene

By W.DeBord on Wednesday, March 22, 2000 - 07:30 am: Edit

Never wait to the last second to make something as important as a wedding cake, that's foolish! Besides fresh cakes don't decorate well.

By Toots (Toots) on Wednesday, March 22, 2000 - 08:52 am: Edit

My recipes are "secret" because I spent a LOT of time money and effort to get the just c right. If I gave them out to every baker in the area, then they would be making cakes that taste as good as mine, and that is not going to happen. As far as waiting to decorate a fresh baked cake, They taste great, and I have never had any trouble decorating a fresh cake. I would not even consider selling a cake that is not fresh. My cakes are alway made and decorated within hours of cooling.

Amy

By jeee2 on Wednesday, March 22, 2000 - 03:35 pm: Edit

Amy,

you're confusing pastry freshness with donuts.
Pastry needs time to "come together" and mature.
Cake that has been chilled at least for several hrs is a lot easier to cut into layers.
I did a lot of genoise cakes built up from layers baked on trays and they benefitted from being chilled overnite if posible.
<<My recipes are "secret" because I spent a LOT of time money and effort to get the just c right<<

you wasted your money.

Cheers, Gerard

By mikebel on Wednesday, March 22, 2000 - 05:54 pm: Edit

Amy i underdstand when you say that you put alot of effort into developing a recipe, but i would say its more to do with the person and there techniques which really makes the good cake dont be afraid of sharing what you but always work on developing new products to be ahead of your competitors. I have taken recipes from where i work and i still use them now.I am even lucky enough to have recipes from my boss who use to be head pastry chef at the roux brothers gavourche spread your knowledge around help others and they will help you. mike bel

By Panini (Panini) on Wednesday, March 22, 2000 - 06:16 pm: Edit

Toots.
we all understand your thoughts, but you will find over time, there is plenty of business out there for all!!! One of our best selling points is our referals. If toots does cheesecake wedding cakes and does them well, than I will refer a potential bride to you if she wants cheesecake, and I guarantee the bride will be back for something else out of thanks for the referal.
Product isn't everything in business.
TRUST ME when I tell you you have not invented anything new. Any recipe has probable been tried or stumbled upon over the last couple of hundred years.

By Judy in Montreal on Wednesday, March 22, 2000 - 08:54 pm: Edit

Pastis,
Where are you in your plans for this cake? How much experience have you had with tiered cakes?
When you say a good, plain chocolate cake, are you thinking of a butter cake or something more dense and moist?
Be more specific and it will be easier to help you.

By jeee2 on Thursday, March 23, 2000 - 12:39 am: Edit

Pastis,

how anyone can say "Help I need an exellent choc cake recipe" but all yours are secret recipes ! , not to be used to help anyone else out.?
ho hum.

By W.DeBord on Thursday, March 23, 2000 - 08:06 am: Edit

Toots you shall take from us but not contribute to us. You should be embarrassed!

Your comments about fresh cakes leaves me speechless, because I don't think were on the same level of understanding I'm not going to respond.

By Toots (Toots) on Thursday, March 23, 2000 - 08:39 am: Edit

Okay, so you all have convinced me that me recipe may not be anything anyone else hasn't already developed, and if she asks, I will be more than happy to share it. It is a heavier, really moist type of cake if that is what she is looking for then she is welcome to it, just e-mail me. As far as freshness is concerned, they are all done with in hours of cooling, I cool them at room temp, then I tort them. ( my 3" cakes are usually only torted to 4 layers ) I do place the layers in the freezer so they are easier to reassemble. This has alway worked for me, maybe one day I will have trouble, then I guess I will have to start making them farther in advance then I do now. Who knows? When you said "Never wait to the last second to make something as important as a wedding cake, that's foolish! Besides fresh cakes don't decorate well." I was thinking of other bakers in the area who bake a cake on Wednesday, for a Saturday night wedding. This may be excatly what your talking about, but i would think a cake made that far in advance would lose it freshness?

Thanks for opening my eyes
Amy

By Panini (Panini) on Thursday, March 23, 2000 - 03:20 pm: Edit

It all depends how that cake is stored. If it is rapid cooled to 70 degrees and brought to -10 degrees in the shortest amount of time possable. You will find that the cake will not only be fresh but moister when thawed.
I bake off Wed night. Flash freeze, fill thurs afternoon, skin fri and decorate fri night.All of my cakes are filled with mousse. This method works well for me.
A good test for freezing cake is, if you can make a dent in the frozen cake with your finger it is not cold enough to repel moisture. It will absorb, thats when you get the quality issue.
The cakes will absorb, smells,odors,air etc.

By Claudia (Claudia) on Thursday, March 23, 2000 - 07:24 pm: Edit

What about transport (Panini - this is probably your bailiwick) - I haven't made too many wedding cakes, but a chilled one will travel better than a room temperature one and there is plenty of time for it to warm up for service. I freeze the layers, and then brush them with a liqueur infused syrup after thawing and before filling and frosting. This moistens them back up, and enhances the flavor.

By Claudia (Claudia) on Thursday, March 23, 2000 - 07:25 pm: Edit

What about transport (Panini - this is probably your bailiwick) - I haven't made too many wedding cakes, but a chilled one will travel better than a room temperature one and there is plenty of time for it to warm up for service. I freeze the layers, and then brush them with a liqueur infused syrup after thawing and before filling and frosting. This moistens them back up, and enhances the flavor.

By Panini (Panini) on Thursday, March 23, 2000 - 09:38 pm: Edit

The worst part of the business. Even the refrigerated vans are little help when its 104 deg.which is most of the summer around here. I have only a 2 hour window with the mousse cakes.
My only relief is my contracts, we deliver and build all the cakes on site, and I give up a good % to have the captains put them out. Say we drop 3 at one account and 2 at another this frees me up to take a couple of more around town. We only go 12 miles out. So actually chilled cakes travel worse. I can never re4ally let them go into the danger zone for to long for the are a PHF.

By Claudia (Claudia) on Thursday, March 23, 2000 - 10:32 pm: Edit

PHF?

By d. on Thursday, March 23, 2000 - 11:27 pm: Edit

In catering, my cakes get sent out inside big wooden boxes which are chilled and packed with dry ice all around. So the cake is very chilled by the time it gets to where it is going and stays that way while they set up the party.

By W.DeBord on Friday, March 24, 2000 - 08:02 am: Edit

I see some really crazy deliveries at work!!!!!

We had a cheesecake wedding cake that was still frozen at the time we had to cut it(they put it on the slicer). Everyother bakery has had to do major repairs while dropping off their cake. People walk in the front door with five tiers assembled and wobbling. People who don't even begin decorating the cake until it's on the table and the bride is walking in the door.

It's not my problem except....when we serve them I'm embarassed (the guests don't know that someone else provided the cake)!!!!

Biggest mistake that happens 100% of the time is the quanitity! The bride and the bakery don't seem to understand that a standard wedding cake slice is not a dessert serving! We have never yet had a wedding that ordered reg. dessert, the cake has been the dessert. The people in the kitchen DON'T know how to slice them and don't care! You should include a written diagram that a non-english reading person can follow when you drop off your cakes.

By Kathyf (Kathyf) on Friday, March 24, 2000 - 02:44 pm: Edit

I deliver wedding cakes. I include diagrams AND written instructions. The only time I have problems is when the reception is in a large banquet facility, usually a hotel with large turnovers in staff. Even if I hand the instuctions to the staff person who will be cutting the cake, they ignore it. They don't know how to cut one,they don't care enough to learn, or they think their way is better. One Mother and I both told the event coordinator and several staff members at a hotel that the items used to set up the cake were NOT disposable. She caught them throwing away parts of the expensive setup at the end of the night. Some of the items were never recovered so the hotel had to pay for them.If someone's Cousin Jane cuts the cake there are usually no problems. I've always been amazed that a friend or family member is more conscientious than a PAID staff person.
W.DeBord - If someone carries stacked tiers or has to make major repairs, they have probably been listening to Martha Stewart!

By W.DeBord on Friday, March 24, 2000 - 06:47 pm: Edit

They are disposable unless it's your home. The kitchen people think it's x-mas. EVERY chef (head chef) I've EVER worked with has stolen a fancy cake knive or five or six, then lied that they never saw it when the customer asks for their family heirloom. It's embarassing, you look at the floor when you listen to your boss lie to the customers face.

By Panini (Panini) on Friday, March 24, 2000 - 07:12 pm: Edit

Claudia, potentially hazardous foods.

Do most people have to take sanitation courses required by the state, sani serve, etc.?
Has anyone checked out the new food and HACCP
codes for 2000? Do you not have to have an accredited class to manage a kitchen.
Here, there must be at least one certified food service manager per outlet or kitchen. 15 hr course every 3 yrs involving biological contamination, bacteria,chemical, toxic elements HACCP etc.
I would like to continue this thread elsewhere.
I think we would find great differances in interpreting the fda codes. This is also why we don't have people working out of there homes, this certification is followed by on site insp.

By Kathyf (Kathyf) on Saturday, March 25, 2000 - 01:37 am: Edit

W.DeBord - Not everyone uses disposable. For a facility to assume all supplies are disposable is not good business. Some of my cake stands cost between $200 and $300. Would you toss them if they were used in your country club?
If a bride asks me who I would recommend to cater or where a good reception site is, I won't be giving them the name of a place where the staff is hard to deal with. And if it becomes known that the staff steals, who would want to do business with them?
I personally could not stand by and listen to someone lie about stealing a family heirloom from someone.
Isn't running a succesful business about satisfying the customer, not stealing from them?

By Kathyf (Kathyf) on Saturday, March 25, 2000 - 01:55 am: Edit

Pastis
Back to the original topic. Do you still have questions about your April 8th cake? Storage depends on the type of cake and filling. Assembly depends on the style of cake. Do you know what style? Will the tiers be stacked, use pillars or sit on a stand? If there is anything I can help you with, just ask. If you are new to doing wedding cakes there are a lot of things that can be shared to make it easier and less stressful for you.

By jeee2 on Saturday, March 25, 2000 - 09:12 am: Edit

"you look at the floor when you listen to your boss lie to the customers face. "

I'd say something or pass a note descreetly.
Say something to the bride beforehand whatever, or speak to F&B. You should do something...wise.
The women who work with me wouldn't let me get away with that...why should someone else. ; )

By W.DeBord on Sunday, March 26, 2000 - 07:57 am: Edit

It's my word against my bosses word and that's not a major enough issue that would get a head chef fired. "Oh I thought that was ours", get's the heat off him. Gerard you'll stand up and loose your job? I don't think so (you've been self-employeed too long if you think you would)! I like a roof over my head and a job recommendation when I leave.

There is a long list of things in this world I don't like morally to witness. The good guy he doesn't win....I found that out too many times. Right now I bet there are several of you that know exactly what I'm talking about.

Who here hasen't seen someone at work help them-self to something that wasen't theirs??????? I don't like it, that's why I mentioned it and it is something that happens ALOT in THIS industry!

By W.DeBord on Sunday, March 26, 2000 - 09:10 am: Edit

As far as using expensive cake supports...I would do that only if the bride has left a large enough deposit to cover the replacement value. I would make her responsible for returning them and then at that time I would refund her money.

Do you hand strangers your car keys, let them use your car then hope they return it in the same condition? It's the same thing only less expensive. Unless it's a home wedding you are leaving your items in the hands of strangers who don't have the time or desire to baby sit your possesions.

By Panini (Panini) on Sunday, March 26, 2000 - 10:17 am: Edit

I'm glad I'm where I am! I have never heard of this sort of thing. I have had a few problems over the years with getting supplies, but for the most part our properties are very trust worthy. All of the country clubs package my parts and have them waiting in the captains office, course if you don't get by to retrieve them they may dissapear.
I would never lay the responsibility of these items on the bride.
If word ever got out of the things you are talking about, you would be able to bowl in you ballroom on saturday nights.
I actually use the pick up of parts and boards as a social call on catering to drum up business.

By W.DeBord on Sunday, March 26, 2000 - 01:54 pm: Edit

How about the rest of you that aren't self-employeed? No one else sees this but me????

I'm not saying they steal everything that's not clued down, but things like pre-opened bottles of wine on big parties which can't be returned....dissapear too.

By Kathyf (Kathyf) on Sunday, March 26, 2000 - 03:01 pm: Edit

Loaning a car isn't the same thing to me. I'm not in the car rental business.
The bride and groom are the last people I'd want to have responsible for the cake setup after the reception. It's supposed to be their special day. I'm sure they can find something better to do at the end of the day!
Most of the hotels and country clubs in my area (midwest) are fine to work with. It's just a few that are big problems. It's not just losing supplies that bothers me. The families have gone to so much work, time and expense to have a once in a lifetime (hopefully only once!) party. You can't expect everything to be perfect, but if poor service, bad food, or worse, theft of family heirlooms occurs it can leave some pretty bad memories. A local families daughter got married at a Florida beach resort and they had presents, flowers, centerpieces, a rented fountain (mine),and even the top of the wedding cake stolen by staff. One of the staff people was questioned before she left and denied knowing anything. The grooms brother followed her to her car and found the fountain and some of the other things in her backseat. She then tried to say she was returning them to the baker and insisted they belonged to him even though the mother of the bride brought them to Florida with her!
The staff should have been more careful picking their victims. The bride, groom and 3/4 of the wedding party were lawyers!

By Panini (Panini) on Sunday, March 26, 2000 - 05:23 pm: Edit

I'm curious why self-employed people would have a different view of this. My last 6 jobs before becoming self employeed were exec. pastry chef for various properties, very large hotels, up-scale rest.,countryclubs,etc. I've never come across this rampid theft thing. Especially in the bakery! a wedding cake usually meant we had gotten out of dessert.
I have never thought that my employees were stealing left-over wine, personal belongings of guest, my things!
I,m like kathyf, there are a few properties that this may happen in my area, but I think they would be using disposable from Albertsons.
How can the bridal consultants and coordinators bring people to you after things like this, are they in on it to?

By W.DeBord on Monday, March 27, 2000 - 08:28 am: Edit

I have never seen employees going thru any guest or co-workers possesions! AND I can't say it's rampent either! The things I write about are items that could be seen as disposable (cake supports and knives) to someone and that is how the employee would have played the situation if caught.

As an owner we got ripped off by our temp. chefs everytime we used one something was missing. Could I prove they didn't loose the item verses steal the items NO.

Theft isn't running rampent at my job. It is out there everywhere and your blind if you have never seen it.

The person having the party is responsible to return items lent to them by another person!!!!!! Or ASK someone to look after items they need to return.

We have non-English speaking dishwashers working as fast as they can. When the last items come into the kitchen they don't know what's garbage and what's priceless. If someone responsible isn't around the guy may keep the item or toss it.

By bubbles on Monday, March 27, 2000 - 02:48 pm: Edit

pananini. what's PHF. do they come in bigger sizes. we are doing quite a few 1 hr ferry trips this summer. need cold storage info.

By Panini (Panini) on Monday, March 27, 2000 - 05:05 pm: Edit

W.DeBord,
If someone has to steal something, than I guess they really needed it. I now understand what you are talking about. The dishwasher thing is the thing I run up against every once in a while. You are absolutely right when you say that a dishwasher does not know the differance between an hierloom and garbage. Very good point.
Here, it is custom to have the captain in charge of property belonging to the party ie. cake parts, knives etc.