I know there has been plenty of posts on these. I have never made these and I have a caterer asking for them. I'm in need of a recipe, DeBord I recall you have one that you did ahead of ttime.I'm limited to a convection oven. The caterer has mentioned he has gotten them in foil? Do I need special pans? Any help would be greatly appreciated! I assume it's an undercooked product?
Panini

By Ramodeo (Ramodeo) on Thursday, August 03, 2000 - 06:47 pm: Edit

Here's the recipe I posted several months ago that I think W DeBord found workable. It's worked great for me - batter can be made ahead, chilled in molds and baked to order or they can be baked ahead, chilled and reheated to order in a microwave.

Unsalted Butter (Plugra) 3# 2 oz
Bittersweet Chocolate 2# 14 oz
Powdered Sugar 2# 4 oz
Cake Flour 1# 6 oz
Yolks, room temp 2 cups (28)
Whole eggs, room temp 28
Vanilla 4 Tbsp.

Melt butter and choc together, blend. Mix in powdered sugar and flour, mix til lumps are gone. Blend in eggs, yolks and vanillaon low speed. Portion into molds (4-5 oz, ramekins work, but I used flexipan mini brioche molds). Refrigerate til firm. Bake @ 350 F til firm around the edges but still liquid in center. Try to catch them just before they start to puff in the center. Once they puff in the center, they've got too much internal heat and they'll overcook even after you pull them out. You will have to play around with oven times and temps according to your baking molds. I had to put the flexipans on dark sheet trays and put them directly on the floor of the oven to get enough bottom heat. If you're doing them ahead, cool and refrigerate til firm before unmolding.

Good Luck!

By Panini (Panini) on Thursday, August 03, 2000 - 08:36 pm: Edit

Ramodeo,
Thank you very much!
Panini

By W.DeBord on Friday, August 04, 2000 - 08:39 am: Edit

Quick plug...Ramodeos' recipe is the best!!!!


I bake them in a convection, no problem. Catching them before they puff...tricky part is the center top sets last. If you don't bake them long enough when you go to invert them the center filling (raw batter) will leak out through the unset center. So you have to watch them closely and get them right as the top sets before it cooks enough to "puff".


I tested the time and temp. etc... but that changed greatly (of course) when I had several full trays in the oven at once. I do really like the fact that you can reheat... I'd advise doing that. I recall it best to heavily spray your pan so they release nicely from the reheat.

By Ramodeo (Ramodeo) on Friday, August 04, 2000 - 08:45 pm: Edit

When I bake them ahead, then chill them til they're solid, I take them out of their molds and freeze them. Several are thawed each day for service. When an order comes in, one is placed upside down - so that unset top is now on the bottom - on a small plate and microwaved on high for 20-30 seconds. It has to be transferred to the serving plate carefully with a spatula, but I don't have too much trouble with the center leaking out. I can see that it would be more difficult to cook them the way that I described and unmold them warm. I always cooked them with the fan off so I could more easily keep track of their doneness.

By vbean on Saturday, August 05, 2000 - 04:37 am: Edit

O.k., I am reading these recipes, and no one is crediting where they came from. This is very much the 90's dessert. I made them 10 years ago at Postrio. They are still made in most of Wolfgang's restaurants.
They came from Vong and Le Bernadin. Both came up with simalar cake recipes at about the same time.
The recipe that I use only has the simple technique of resting it overnight. I have used this recipe so much!! I have transformed it into different chocolates and shapes.
My current best seller: milk choc tart with liquid caramel interior and chocolate cookie crust.

By vbean on Saturday, August 05, 2000 - 05:25 am: Edit

You are making it much harder than it is to make these cakes.
3# 2 oz GOOD chocolate (Valhrona Extra Bittersweet)
3# 2 oz butter (good unsalted)
1# 8 oz sugar
1# 4 oz ap flour
24 whole eggs
24 yolks
2 oz vanilla extract
1 T kosher salt

Melt choc and butter. Whip eggs and sugar for 12 minutes. Fold chocolate into eggs, add flour with last addition of eggs.
Rest batter overnight or 6 hours. Scoop, bake, (325 convection for 11 minutes). For the "truffle" center, place a quality frozen solid truffle in to the center of the cake before baking.

By vbean on Saturday, August 05, 2000 - 05:36 am: Edit

We made these cakes at Postrio 10 years ago. Wolfgang still serves them at many of his restaurants.
The credit should go to Le Bernadin, or Vong , both restaurants came up with a simalar recipe at the same time.
I credit mine to Mary Bergin. She is very cool, she made the cake cause Wolfgang loved it.
I have used the recipe so many times with so many different filling "surprises". I have a milk choc caramel liquid center tart on the menu that came from this.

By W.DeBord on Saturday, August 05, 2000 - 08:28 am: Edit

I tried the frozen truffle in the center technique (actually 2 different molton cakes published in the Spago cookbook) and found them to work but they were not as good as Ramodeos' recipe.

Maybe we've over described every little detail to make her recipe seem complicated. IT'S NOT AT ALL!

Actually vbean your recipe doesn't sound that much different than Ramodeos', except her center is self forming and yours isn't.

By Panini (Panini) on Saturday, August 05, 2000 - 02:53 pm: Edit

To All,
I was really looking for a recipe. I kinda know what they are. I just missed the fad for the last 10 yrs.
Thanks for all the imput, I made Ramodeos' recipe yesterday, they came out great.WDeBord, you were right , was better to leave a space between each pan to hit the tops.
Vbean,
We brought yours up this morning, was a little confussed about last addition of eggs?. Will bake these off tomorrow.
Hey, ya know Puck may have exposed these but I made these same things in the 70's at Windows in NY during my apprent. I made the caramels for the centers.
Thanks again all,
panini

By Ramodeo (Ramodeo) on Sunday, August 06, 2000 - 12:21 am: Edit

vbean - how is the recipe I posted harder? Seems a whole lot easier than making truffles just to stick in the middle. And what is *up* with the name dropping?

Why are you so all fired up about who made this first? Who cares? I never claimed to have invented it! The recipe I posted was a compilation I came up with from many different sources - too many to go back and come up with a bibliography. Someone asked for a recipe he knew he'd seen discussed here before and I provided it. The fact is, molten chocolate cakes are now a classic, and will be around for a long time to come. I'm sure they probably have a history that goes back before the 70's if you really want to get all archeological about it. But who's got the time? Not me! I've got a restaurant to open in 3 days! Woohooo!

By d. on Sunday, August 06, 2000 - 10:36 pm: Edit

I have tried Ramadeo's recipe,found it good but somewhat lacking in chocolate flavor and color for the type of molten cake I was looking for. My apologies Ramadeo I hope I'm not offending you. I tried Valrhona's recipe and Guirardelli's and I tried Bo Friberg's recipe in the Pro. Pastry Chef(though I'm not crazy about most of his recipes). His was really dark(just what I was looking for)and the consistency was good. I just tweaked it just a bit and it's the recipe I've been using since. From my obsrvations, these recipes are almost like brownie recipes except they have less flour, more eggs and are slightly underbaked for the gooey centers.

By Ramodeo (Ramodeo) on Monday, August 07, 2000 - 12:53 am: Edit

I'm not at all offended! :-)

I have always used CocoaBarry 60% cocoa solids dark chocolate and mine come out very dark. I did find once when I used cheaper butter than Plugra (it had tons more milk solids) that they came out lighter and the chocolate flavor was muted, like milk chocolate. What do you think made Bo Frieburgs recipe come out darker? Was there a higher proportion of chocolate?

By vbean on Monday, August 07, 2000 - 06:56 am: Edit

I do not usually add a truffle any more. The cake is enough. The center is creamy without the truffle (I bake it for 11 minutes in a 2 3/4 ring). I was not name dropping. I was talking about my life.
I am so sorry, I quoted the wrong amount of butter and chocolate ( I thought it was all in my head, it used to be
2# 10oz each
about the eggs? Whip them with the sugar for 12 minutes, then fold in the chocolate and whatever flavorings.
I have been baking these cakes for many years professionally.
Individual muffin aluminum tins are the easiest, though rings work well too.
If you want more information , just ask.

By vbean on Monday, August 07, 2000 - 07:04 am: Edit

I never advised using Mary's book. The recipe that I got from Spago in 1990 is different.
I must add, that I will always credit a recipe. I don't care how mainstream it has become. It is the right thing to do.

By d. on Monday, August 07, 2000 - 08:11 am: Edit

The recipe has about 22% chocolate and a minute amount of flour. Will post the recipe when I have a bit more time. We're getting ready for the democratic convention here in L.A. so I'm sooooo busy.

By vbean on Wednesday, August 09, 2000 - 03:51 am: Edit

D, DO you want the recipe? I can give it to you.
Where I work it is always busy. I bake for alot of Democrats. I have also worked alot of Democratic elections.
I also have made desserts for FORMER President Bush, many times (may his presidency rest in peace).

By Panini (Panini) on Wednesday, August 09, 2000 - 03:00 pm: Edit

Democratic undercooked brownies? WHAT???

By Ramodeo (Ramodeo) on Wednesday, August 09, 2000 - 06:26 pm: Edit

I'm sorry, but if you're not name dropping, vbean, why do you keep using the names of famous people gratuitously?

By Cheftim (Cheftim) on Thursday, August 10, 2000 - 02:49 pm: Edit

I once sliced Roast Beef for Claude Aktins.

By Ramodeo (Ramodeo) on Thursday, August 10, 2000 - 07:09 pm: Edit

Now that's impressive!!!!!!

By RDB on Thursday, August 10, 2000 - 11:37 pm: Edit

I have catered receptions for Opra Winfrey,Hank Williams Jr.,Ronnie Millsap,George Bush,Michael Dukauis,Kenny Rodgers,Junior Brown,Ann Richards,White Snake,Steve Miller band,and a host of others. THAT AND $1.25 WILL GET ME A CUP OF COFFEE AT DENNEYS. My point is that anyone that has been in the business any time at all has cooked for famous people,get off the soap box and come back to realality.

By Mofo1 (Mofo1) on Thursday, August 10, 2000 - 11:50 pm: Edit

ChefTim....You are now my Messiah!!!

By Yankee on Friday, August 11, 2000 - 02:04 am: Edit

Mick Jagger, his daughter, her new hubby and HIS DAD were in a few weeks ago. Mick's Dad: way cooler than George Bush...I've also got two bucks, can I get a latte?

By momoreg on Friday, August 11, 2000 - 06:27 am: Edit

I didn't know famous people EAT!

By W.DeBord on Friday, August 11, 2000 - 08:07 am: Edit

They don't really eat....do they? Formal catered functions are places for them to practice their grand LATE (like hours late)enterences to see how long people will hold up an entire event just for them.

Has anyone seen a star actually putting food in their mouth?


I know politicians eat because they imediately hand you back their empty toothpicks on your full H.D. tray.

By Yankee on Friday, August 11, 2000 - 12:39 pm: Edit

Actually, our Mayor is quite the "foodie about town." I would be too if I never had to pick up the check. Ah, graft, what a great thing.

By RDB on Friday, August 11, 2000 - 02:59 pm: Edit

Yankee,
sorry,latte is 2.50 if you would like it in a cup add another 1.00. don't forget we accept cash,checks,and most major credit cards,and remember tipping is not a city in china!Opra ate like she was at a rescue mission,Hank Williams drnk till he passed out,the rest only shove the occasinal foot in thier mouths.

By Ramodeo (Ramodeo) on Friday, August 11, 2000 - 08:43 pm: Edit

My first dinner-for-a-famous-person experience was in school when our class did the meal for the Timothy Leary/G. Gordon Liddy "debate" tour. Remember that? What a trip. Leary was all over the place - physically and mentally :-), moving his chair to different spots, all of which blocked us poor 1st year culinary student trying to do French service....He was way loopy. When I was in high school, we were idolizers of the whole 60's thing - Leary included. Boy did I get a dose of reality!

By Panini (Panini) on Friday, August 11, 2000 - 10:39 pm: Edit

I once cooked for myself.

By W.DeBord on Saturday, August 12, 2000 - 10:32 am: Edit

Bummer Panini, no rich and famous your way? You know you could still be rudely late and turn up your nose at your own food if you like. Gather your employees together and practice on them.

Oh wait didn't Jean Bancet (sp? from LA France') already do that?

By Yankee on Saturday, August 12, 2000 - 12:25 pm: Edit

Panini, no man is an island.

My friend worked a summit meeting up at Rosevelt's old place by the CIA on the Hudson River back in '95. Her left boob brushed Clinton's sholder as she was serving his salad course. She said she didn't wash her boob for a week.

No really, I couldn't make up these stories if I wanted to.

By Panini (Panini) on Monday, August 14, 2000 - 06:30 pm: Edit

W.DeBord, yea, actually lots of rich and famous this way. Used to excite me, cooking in front of men with OOzzii SP? Having secret service go through my kitchen and belongings and watching them rip apart a beautiful old house to, I don't know put in microphones. Maybe a new thread! Cooking or Baking under unusual conditions.
I once baked apple tarts on a grill in the back yard of a home to feed family and guest Gen.Powell. I only remember this because we received a thank you note from him.Oh my gosh!I'm name dropping!

By RDB on Monday, August 14, 2000 - 11:51 pm: Edit

Panini,
Meow,Meow,Ftttth.Have you been sharpening your claws? That last post from you showed a bit of a mean streak. I'm SOOOOOOOOO PROUD!!!!!

By Vatel (Vatel) on Wednesday, August 16, 2000 - 10:32 pm: Edit

I once cooked for Bi-lingual Bob from Sesame Street . He was a pretty nice fellow.
Then a week later Adam West was escorted out of our dining room for pinching a waitress. Adam did say he liked the salad..

By W.DeBord on Tuesday, August 22, 2000 - 08:51 am: Edit

I'm a bit confused vbean, on 8/5/00 you posted your recipe....but on 8/9/00 you offer your recipe? Yes, I would like the best recipe for molton cakes I can't get!


I also want to try Friebergs' recipe d., would you mind sharing how you changed it?

Thanks in advance!!

By vbean on Thursday, August 31, 2000 - 03:39 am: Edit

2# 10 very good chocolate
2# 10 oz butter
1# 12 oz sugar
1# 8 oz flour
2 oz exceptional vanilla extract
24 yolks
24 eggs whole

Whip the sugar and eggs to very pale peaks.
Meanwhile, melt the choc and the butter.
Fold the eggs with the flour into the chocolate. If you have a hobart, you can start there with the flour, pulse it in to the eggs.

Bake this with either a very fine truffle ( I use Valrhona for the entire recipe) or anything in the center.

By vbean on Thursday, August 31, 2000 - 03:56 am: Edit

Rest the batter overnight always for best results.

By Yankee on Friday, September 01, 2000 - 02:56 pm: Edit

Panini, did you ever make these things for your caterer? Just curious how it ended up.

By Panini (Panini) on Saturday, September 02, 2000 - 06:29 pm: Edit

Yankee
I used Ramodeo's formula and method. They work great. We froze them and the caterers love them.
They have ordered many since. I suggested a dash of powdered salt out of the oven as in that article and the responce was great. I will have to try one myself.
Thanks again Ramodeo, I'm actually in the black on these after buying the molds.

By W.DeBord on Saturday, September 02, 2000 - 07:05 pm: Edit

D. have you tried to reheat or freeze Bo Friebergs recipe? I have changed over to using Friebergs from Romodeos' recipe for molton cakes (I would also recommend Friebergs' he didn't miss the boat on this one)...for some reason my tops were baking with a open whole (not a good appearance) with R.s' recipe. Did you have any thing similar happen with yours Panini?

By Yankee on Saturday, September 02, 2000 - 08:40 pm: Edit

I tried Romodeo's recipe after it was first posted. I used the old standard 3 1/4" ring molds. Thing is, I just busted them out during a slow service evening while we were plating. So, I tend to think that because I was not giving the thing 100% focus I may have screwed something up.

We ended up with what DeBord describes: it cooked around the outside, but sank in the middle. I also got a powdered sugar aftertaste from them. Honestly, I probably bogarted them along the way, so I can't really offer an opinion. I just thought it was interesting that DeBord and I may have ended up in the same spot.

By Ramodeo (Ramodeo) on Saturday, September 02, 2000 - 08:57 pm: Edit

I may have discussed this before - I always served these upside down. After they bake, there is an indentation in the top, but I always baked them ahead, cooled them, popped them out of the molds and stored them refrigerated. When cold they are very solid. When they are microwave reheated, they are flipped upside down, and as long as the bottoms (now the tops) got enough direct heat in the oven to set up well, they will hold their shape for service.

It's a delicate balance between molds, baking time and temp, position in the oven, unmolding/reheating. You've got to figure it out for your particular situation. Good Luck!

By Panini (Panini) on Sunday, September 03, 2000 - 01:33 pm: Edit

My last post didn't take but I wanted to say that I needed to do some tweeking. I tried to short the butter and choco. wrong! this recipe needs top shelf butt. and choco. I also have gone to using the deck ovens instead of the convection.
I also retard the mixture before scooping.
A caterer plated one for me at the shop, she sat it on what she called a Chambord puff, ganache, chambord, cream, club soda, cinnamon. I really enjoyed it.
panini

By Yankee on Sunday, September 03, 2000 - 04:35 pm: Edit

That makes sense, Ramodeo.

We have another recipe that (future tense) Mrs. Yankee uses at work. They get filled, frozen, then baked to order (10 min), and inverted on the plate. They work well for simple plating, but in-mass they would be a major headache. Top quality butter and a 65% chocolate, plus perfectly whipped egg whites. Otherwise they are a big mess.

I have also never understood the need for a truffle center. Seems like a ton of extra work and added cost.

Panini, do you know of a woman named Sara Brooke? She runs a dessert operation in Texas. (I know, it's a big State.)

By Panini (Panini) on Sunday, September 03, 2000 - 05:18 pm: Edit

Yankee, I don't know of her. Does she have a website.
Speaking of websites, we have gone from very upscale pictures to run of the mill and not the cleanest work pictures. The very fancy cakes seem to add dollar signs to the site. We have had more success running these. My thought has always been that you should always show your best. My wife won this one! course she is an exec. in international advertising.Go figure.
I know this is off the subject!!!
paninicakes.com

By d. on Sunday, September 03, 2000 - 05:30 pm: Edit

Hi everyone! Right after the democratic convention my husband and I left on vacation. I really was looking forward to it after those last 2 weeks. Now I'm back, sun-tanned and relaxed though a bit sad to be leaving the beaches, the margaritas and pig-out food on our cruise.
To answer your question W.; usually the whole in the middle of the cake happens when you overmix the eggs and sugar, incorporating too much air. Since we are underbaking the cakes for the gooey center, incorporating too much air into the mixture makes the cake deflate when not done. Since I don't have a lot of freezer space, I bake them up to 2 days in advance. After the cakes have cooled down, I pipe just a bit of softened ganache into the centers to make them even more decadent. Then I chill and pack. That way when sent to a party the cooks just warm them up without me worrying that they are overbaking the center. I did add cocoa powder to his recipe because I wanted it just a bit darker.

By Chefrick (Chefrick) on Sunday, September 03, 2000 - 09:22 pm: Edit

D.
Who do you work for? The reason I ask is the company I work for did the food service for both the democratic and republican conventions.

By d. on Monday, September 04, 2000 - 12:14 am: Edit

We didn't do food for the Staples center, UAW Daimler Chrysler booked us for servicing their parties for the delegates at the Petersen automotive museum. I work for Someone's in the Kitchen. Lunch covers were from 300-700 and dinner 400-800 for 5 days. It certainly was an experience!

But it definitely doesn't compare to the number of covers on our cruise ship! Imagine making food for 2500 people(every dinner was a 5 course meal)for 6 days straight on a moving vessel. Took a tour of the galley and it was amazing.

By Chefrick (Chefrick) on Monday, September 04, 2000 - 01:21 am: Edit

D.
I have never been on a cruise ship,what was the galley like,I can only imagine the space it would take.What about the size of the kitchen staff,how many people does it take to feed round the clock like that?

By d. on Wednesday, September 06, 2000 - 04:25 pm: Edit

I'll post my answer on the new topic about cruise ship pastry chef somebody has started...

By vbean on Thursday, September 07, 2000 - 04:53 am: Edit

You are all really strange.
I have been making these cakes for 12 years. I have served them to 200 people at one time. I know the history behind them, and the best chocolate to use.
Why do I sometimes use a good truffle interior? This is what creates a warm flowing center. If it is winter, and I place brandied cherries in the center I don't use a truffle.
You are not correct about the whole in the center. Since the batter has not set in the center, it is in it's more liquid stage. The cake is not structurally stable- that is why it collaspes.This has to do with being an underbaked cake, not overwhipped eggs.
I have always done as Ramadeo, I serve the cake upside down.
Have fun in your next ten years!

By Panini (Panini) on Thursday, September 07, 2000 - 02:52 pm: Edit

Yes, we are all pretty strange. I will try very hard in the next ten years to become as experienced and knowledgeable as you. Of course 2009 will be my last year of work,I am retiring.
I am really looking foward to that. Strange?
panini

By Ramodeo (Ramodeo) on Thursday, September 07, 2000 - 08:17 pm: Edit

vbean - what exactly is strange about this discussion? That everyone didn't take your recipe and method and bow down to your superior experience? Get over yourself.

By Ramodeo (Ramodeo) on Thursday, September 07, 2000 - 08:25 pm: Edit

Panini - retiring in ten years?! That's great! Somehow I get the feeling that you will be younger than 65 at that point. Good for you! :-)

By Panini (Panini) on Friday, September 08, 2000 - 12:43 pm: Edit

Ramodeo,
54 is the magic number for me!!!!

By W.DeBord on Saturday, September 09, 2000 - 08:25 am: Edit

WoW, I'm totally jealous! Good for you!!!!!!

By Panini (Panini) on Saturday, September 09, 2000 - 06:07 pm: Edit

Ya know, 40 yrs. in this industry probably equates to 60 yrs. desk work.
For the time being a little more schooling, maybe CPA, Finance, business developement and in ten yrs. help people get into business and stay there.