I am talking in general, I know prices very greatly from area to area, even town to town. I am wondering how i should go about pricing my cakes. The only other person in town who makes cakes only charges .75 cents a slice. She uses a mix, does not use anything other than buttercream for filling, and does not do any work with fondant, or gumpaste.

By toots on Monday, January 24, 2000 - 02:23 pm: Edit

I refuse to charge anything less than 1.50 slice for a basic cake/untorted, with basic buttercream decorations. I make all my cakes from scratch, offer a wide variety in filling options, and am very good at what i do.

My question is how do I go about figuring price based on ingederants? i know i pay .o5 cent for an eggs ect. would i use a method of ingederant multiplied by some #? How about charging for time involved in gumpaste flowers?
I do not want to compromise my prices ( they are very low compared to the nation rate, but I cannot demand to much in my town, not while i am just starting, and they are not used to quality yet:))

TIA
Amy

P.S I am not wanting to start a debate on scratch vs mix. It has been my experiance that scratch is the best tasting, that is why I choose scratch.

By momoreg on Monday, January 24, 2000 - 03:16 pm: Edit

Find out the price per ounce for each ingredient, as well as the price per pound. Take your recipe, and figure out the price for 1x, 2x, 3x, etc. That way, you'll automatically know how much the cake cost you, based on how many times you had to multiply the original recipe. As far as charging for your time, figure out a fair hourly rate for your work, and figure it in before you make the cake. I used to always underestimate how long I'd need to make flowers, so make sure you give yourself enough. It's true, you're just starting, but you don't want to lose $ on your labor.

By W.DeBord on Monday, January 24, 2000 - 04:03 pm: Edit

Toots it sounds like you already know how much to charge. You can do tons of math calulations but in the end you want to charge the most you can get with-out over pricing yourself out of business. Many amutuers price their work low to attract customers. What they don't realize is at the end of the day they didn't make more money then they would have in a min. wage job.

Your smart enough to know your work is better and you are worth being paid for your time. If $1.50 is all you think anyone would pay for your product and that amount covers your costs plus makes you a large enough profit that you can continue making your cakes than that is your best price. If you think you can get more money as you reputation builds then at that time slowly raise your rate and test the water.

By W.DeBord on Monday, January 24, 2000 - 04:55 pm: Edit

P.S. I find it wise to have a basic price including a average simple frosting decoration. That would be your $1.50 for a say a basket weave design etc... .

I would always advise anyone to charge extra for time consuming decorations. Say $1.00 per hand made edible flower, $10.00 for a pulled sugar bow etc... If you don't charge people for your work/time people will take advantage of you.

You can't always plan ahead of time what may be asked of you so tell your customers there will be an extra charge and how much that will be before beginning. Stick to your quoted price. Record your real time, real expenses so the next time your price something you know exactly what it's worth.

Seperate detailed pricing explains to the customer the "why" in "Why does that cost so much?". It cost this price, based on what they want. If they want less it cost less.

By Panini (Panini) on Monday, January 24, 2000 - 06:22 pm: Edit

If you intend to grow or go commercial I would establish percentages now, based on what your market will bear.
example. cogs 20% including dry supplies,labor 28%, overhead 35%, net 17%.
your overhead may not be that right now, but when you grow so does your liabilities.
W DeBord is right, it sounds like you already know what to charge. If the market is 1.50 than go for it.
I will be pleased to help you with specifics if you like, I do approx 200 to 250ea a year.

By tj on Wednesday, January 26, 2000 - 03:46 pm: Edit

nobody nets 17% on wedding cakes , are you kidding?
the profit margine is the highest of all baked product!
what you charge should be based first on the ability of your customers to pay the highest price possible for the area, and then it should be calculated on how many hours it takes you to make the cake. ingrediants costs are neglegeble in most cases.for example ,charging $1000 for a 3 tier cake with pulled sugar roses will cost you what you pay for cake ingrediants plus 2 or 3 pound of sugar and some glucose.which in proportion to the total price is close to nothing. you wont be able to charge that much on butter cream roses couse the presieved value is different.although it takes more time to make the pulled sugar roses ,the compansation in price is 5 time or more.and its worth it ,if the locals can pay for it.

By tj on Wednesday, January 26, 2000 - 03:51 pm: Edit

the best idea is to call the best cake decorators/designers in your area , and pose as an interested customer ,and evaluate there work ,taste it, see the price levels of different cakes, even ask for a full consultation .see what they can or can not do ,and learn from your competition.they have been around to figure out what the locals can and will pay for cakes.
based on that you will know how good you are compared to the competition,and how much you can charge and sell cakes based on that.

By Panini (Panini) on Wednesday, January 26, 2000 - 08:58 pm: Edit

tj,
Talk all you want, but there is nothing you can tell me about the wedding cake business, 17% net profit after cogs,labor, overhead etc. is average.
Please do not mislead people in this conversation, its obvious you just want to intrude here to. If you dissagree with me, you are welcome to visit my base wholesale operation.
Maybe you will learn something about business!!!
I am making a go of it!!! Sixth year,wholesale operation paid off, in ther black. Opening another retail location as we speak.
I am wanting for nothing, and don't plan on shutting the doors because of these stupid american customers.

By W.DeBord on Wednesday, January 26, 2000 - 09:20 pm: Edit

Panini I don't understand "cogs" what is that short for?

Boy, I'm not sure I'd like 250 (wedding cakes)a year(great if your the owner too many if I had to do each one), how many people work for you?

Did you deside on your cookie selection? I'm curious what you selected, if you don't mind??

By tj on Wednesday, January 26, 2000 - 10:29 pm: Edit

cog=cost of goods
panini is the one who mislead here.he is talking about mass producing cheap cakes for wholesale accounts ,something i know quite a lot about.and if he nets 17%,that meens he charges very little on his cakes and he employ too many people to make those cake for him.at 20%cost of goods (or ingrediants) his $1 per serving slice of wedding cake is piling up to 20%+28%+35%=83% cost of sale
or 83 cents on a dollar.if i had to make 17 cents profit on a dollar in the wedding cake business i would think twice or maybe you just sit in an office and let your staff do the work.i dont think toots can work at that profit margin nor does any independent decorator.if a $1000 cake that i do will cost me $830 to make i think i would rather not do it.plus your prices do not reflect retail prices ,which i think was the original intent of this discution.

By tj on Wednesday, January 26, 2000 - 10:42 pm: Edit

a baker like toots that makes every thing from scrach does NOT make %17 net profit ,if she would she would have to make hunderds of cakes a year which i dont think she can.lets think about this for a second.say you sell a cake for $1.5 avarege price on a serving.
so 100 serving 3 tier cake would be $150.now say you made 1000 cakes a year (!!!!!!!!!!!!) ,which is almost 20 cakes a week (!) -very labour intensive,not to mention delivery(!) ,which comes to $150,000 at the end of the year,and leave you a net profit of $25,000 .does that sound like a resonable profit on such a crazy labor intensive 1000 wedding cakes kind of work? does this profit margin apply to any one in this forum?

By tj on Wednesday, January 26, 2000 - 10:46 pm: Edit

i wonder if collet peters,or ron ben israel, or mrs.weinstock , ever read this forum.i know steve klc does.
i would like to hear what they has to say about net profitting in the wedding cake business.

By Claudia on Thursday, January 27, 2000 - 08:32 am: Edit

Can't something be done about the continually nasty tone of these posts? Are we going to have to put up with this in every discussion?

By momoreg on Thursday, January 27, 2000 - 08:40 am: Edit

Panini,
It does sound like you don't make quite as much money on wedding cakes as you could be. Maybe the market in the Northeast is more willing to pay more, but I know you're situated in a very affluent area of Dallas. Why do you charge so little? I'm not so much challenging your expertise, but I'm curious to know how you can make a decent profit on them.

By tj on Thursday, January 27, 2000 - 02:50 pm: Edit

usualy ,bakeries who do wholesale of many baked item ,will add a line of wedding cakes to their wholesale operation.this adds up to the bottom line ,even if its only %17, it still pay bills, plus i used to do that just to keep my staff working in the slow season.there is nothing wrong with that.my point is this, and that is for all cake decorators out there who think of expanding in to wholesaling there wedding cakes :
be very careful about investing in more commercial equipment ,renting a commercial space, hiring more help.you will find your bottom line shrinking faster than you expect.if you are not already ingaged in the wholesale baking bussiness, with an equipped facility, you will be better off runing a small time operation.

By tj on Thursday, January 27, 2000 - 02:54 pm: Edit

it is also risky, couse for example, if i was in dallas with a bakery ,as a business man it would be a priority for me to find out who are the accounts that buy panini`s wedding cakes, what they look like, and what they pay for it, and then a pricing war starts.i would offer them expactly the same cakes ,and same service, but at a lower price.how long do you think befor panini will start seeing his orders shrink down ,eventualy to nothing? so what does he have to do? cut his prices to beat the competion,and so on and on.

By tj on Thursday, January 27, 2000 - 03:01 pm: Edit

my point is simple,
invest all you can in taking classes with the best cake decorators ,learn as much as you can, develope a unique style,and then approach the brides with the right attitude and marketing.go to bridal shows,advertise in bridal magazins,go to competitions,get the local media to notice you, and then you can put the right price tag on your cakes and people will pay through their noses for a famous decorators cake.
stay small and focused ,working at home or maybe the garage, dont buy unnessesary equipment,dont hire more than 2-3 decorators as more work comes in.dont over book yourself ,you will not be able to do quality work if every thing needs to be rushed, or done by unskilled help.

By tj on Thursday, January 27, 2000 - 03:02 pm: Edit

this is almost a fullproff plan to be able to make serious money in the wedding cake business,and it can be accomplished within 2 or 3 years ,depending on where you are located.

By d. on Thursday, January 27, 2000 - 04:22 pm: Edit

Problem is that working at home or in a garage is illegal and violates health/fire codes(or at least in my state it is).

By tj on Thursday, January 27, 2000 - 05:59 pm: Edit

so what ? its ilegal to drive over the speed limit too...do we all drive at the posted speed limit?
they will never catch you.just be descreet, show case your work at bridal stores, and shows and you`ll be fine.
so many people do it, i think the minor "risk" is worth the profits you`ll make.

By Panini (Panini) on Thursday, January 27, 2000 - 06:52 pm: Edit

Your last post sums it up nicely!!!!step on anybody to get to where you need to be.
You trash my business without knowing anything about it!!!!! I am not a $1 per slice wholesaler. When i refer to business i mean a real business!!
legal kitchens and so forth.
My decorators all own a piece of the business.
We charge a premium. I never have to worry about somebody like tj undercutting me, because my product speaks for itself.
17% left in the corperation at the end of the year is very profitable, in fact not a wise move.
After paying everything for the year, vans,rent,utilities,above average salaries and bonuses, a pleasant salary for myself,partner, and so forth. 17% is very good.
I don't have to justify my business to anyone, but i will knowledgebly talk to anyone who is interested in my input and answer all questions i can. I have found that communi9cation is the real way to be sucessful.
One does not have to play imposter to see what the competition is doing, you don,t have to undercut anyone, there is plenty of business for all.
To toots if you plan to really go into business and have ?'s I'm here. It's not simple it takes a lot of hard work, you can't sit around in an office and ther is a lot of hidden things.
insurance-property,liability,.etc.
tj need not reply. you don't even know what net profit means!!!

By Panini (Panini) on Thursday, January 27, 2000 - 07:35 pm: Edit

W.DeBord
it takes about 1 1/2 decerators to handle this production. we average 5-6 a week. not really alot when you tyhink about it.
Memoreg
We charge just as much as the competition. we average 2.50 t0 5.50 per port. There is great money in the wedding cake business!!! but my enphasis to everybody starting out is the hidden cost of starting. Hell I'm just trying to save someone alittle time and money if they are really serious about starting a real legal business.I've learnd by mistakes why not help someone avoid them. I have some properties requiring 2-3 million $ in liability insurance.
anyway I'm really swamped with my new venture and i come here to relax not get tense. will one of you please e-mail mewhen things get back to normal.
W.DeBord, by thge way the idea about the bars was great. I've been playing with them and have come up with some rich ones and some healthy ones for the fitness center around the corner. plan on opening the 1st of feb. if i can get my co from the city and the healt dept-alot of new rules and regs.
By for now, thanks
panini

By W.DeBord on Thursday, January 27, 2000 - 09:18 pm: Edit

Oh, they love to drive you crazy. Don't let them :)

By tj on Friday, January 28, 2000 - 02:41 pm: Edit

i dont need your personal insults ,plus no business lessons too .why do you attack me personaly? this time the "nasty tone" does not come from me!!!
i have been in this business befor you parrents ever met.you would not respond in this way to any one else in this forum.
i guess you dont really know how many FAMOUS cake decorators in this country started at home and still ,many of them work at home.you should visit the next i.c.s show and walk around talking to the people there.

By tj on Friday, January 28, 2000 - 03:00 pm: Edit

befor every body start attacking me again ,take a deep breath and check the facts .
i suggest you visit i.c.e.s web site ,at :
WWW.ICES.ORG and maybe even joine them.the conventions are great and i have demonstrated in them twice befor. they will teach you all you want to know about the wedding cake business.dont take my word for it. the next convention will be in detroit michigan in august 10 to 13 /2000. i was invited again to demonstrate pulled and blown sugar work at the second day of the show.hopefully
i can make it againe for this year, if my classes permits the short break...if you do visit this great show ,ask around ,and see for yourself how many people work out of their homes...

By Panini (Panini) on Friday, January 28, 2000 - 07:08 pm: Edit

read your thread on how you would put me out of business an tell me about personal attacks. Maybe your just old and cannot remember what you say from day to day? I don't know. Your frazzeled,opinionated,one sided and I personally have no time for you. I will be at that show and will do my best to avoid you.Check your facts, most major cities will not allow you to work out of your garage, and for the ones in NY you mentioned I know for a fact the don't either.
Get a life!!!!!!! No one has to end this thread, I will not respond.
thanks

By W.DeBord on Friday, January 28, 2000 - 08:53 pm: Edit

I have first hand knowledge about home based cake decorators (mom did it years ago). I would never recommend that route!!!!!!!!!!!

A. You can't promote your business.

B. You can't get a tax number and buy you ingred. wholesale.

C. You can only do so much business, because you don't have enough equipment.

D. You never want to get someone/anyone mad at you because you worry about them talking to the IRS.

E. Working in secret means you don't have insurance, you pray your homeowners covers you if you have a disaster.

F. If you can't work you won't recieve any unemployement benifits, social security pays you $0.00 when you retire.

F. You have to hide your money, how do you explain your bank deposits if your caught?

G. Now you have to fear someone robbing your house.

H. This is not a carefree make big bucks business profile.

By tj on Friday, January 28, 2000 - 10:37 pm: Edit

well guys,
ices happens to have several thousands of members ,most of which are women, and from talking to so many of them , it seems to be quite a common practice to work out of home.i dont know where they buy ingrediants, but i do know they do all the promo work in shows, bridal shops and magazins, some i have met even show case their work in j.c penny and even i know of one that does that at bloomingdales in boca raton ,and still bakes at home.they do have tax numbers and they do pay taxes.how exactly i dont know , but when you are at the next ices convention ask around.you`ll be amazed at how much info they are sharing there.(why would`nt you be able to get a tax number?i dont think the IRS cares about where you do your work...all they care about is if you pay them taxes on time.)

By tj on Friday, January 28, 2000 - 10:42 pm: Edit

its a fact that baking commercialy at home is not allowed, in all cities, but no one is actively looking for anyone baking at home, so how can they find you?
i think this is a good way for starting in this business to have a "feel" of the local market you are in, befor investing thousands in a commercial outlet , to see if such an investment is worthwile. i red in other topics in this forum that quite a few of you actually done it in the past...

By Panini (Panini) on Saturday, January 29, 2000 - 07:34 am: Edit

Well tj, it seems the ocean has calmed. Thank you for that.
I agree with you that no one should jump into commersial kitchens. I think everybody starts experimenting in their own kitchen. Testing the water.
I personally am opposed to someone setting up a commersial kitchen out of there home or garage.
I'm apposed to this because its not fair to those who do it legally. My break even on just one kitchen is 75,000. Health inspection locally 500.,
state ins. 300., liability ins.and every other ins.you can think of.
Actually most of the properties in my area are now requiring 1-3 million liability ins. This is why I wholesale(a term I use only because they resell it) it keep the suzy homemaker from comming in with her 1.50 per slice cake.
My passion is baking, my interests are in business. Thats why I'm probably so bias.
I appologise for all of my comments about you.
take care

By W.DeBord on Saturday, January 29, 2000 - 01:17 pm: Edit

Alot of those people you talk about tj are like the millions of crafters out there that really are NOT making min. wage! It's alot of risk and time/work to make such a low wage.

No know one actively looks for you but...trust me you live in fear! You become scared to speak up or stand your ground. People turn in their neighbors all the time "they had cars coming and going, etc..." some people are just complainers.

The goverment runs random tax audits all the time. They may not be looking into you. It may be your customer who's writing off your product they purchased from you that sends up the red flag to the IRS.

When they burn their house down guess what...insurance doesn't have to pay their claim.
Or the neighboor kid gets hurt on your pavement your insurance doesn't cover it, beleive me I have checked into it.

I don't care about it being equal or fair to businesses. I'm sure some people do make good money but MOST don't.

IT'S A BIG GAMBLE WITH ALOT OF RISK!!!!!

By tj on Saturday, January 29, 2000 - 02:45 pm: Edit

w. you keep mentioning avoiding taxes, but i know that many of those who work at home in cakes have s.corporations, they dont cary insurance because they dont have a need for it.i dont know exactly what you meen by a kid that gets hurt on the pavement.what if he did ? regardless of cakes or no cakes ,what does it meen? every time someone trips in front of my house i need insurance to cover them?
i understand the thing with a house burning down, but how many houses burn down because they bake cakes in them? i think cigarrets do far worse than cakes in this case, dont you?

By tj on Saturday, January 29, 2000 - 02:55 pm: Edit

by the way W.
i read the discution about "how about those home bakers" ,and the general feeling i got was that you where milder in you critisizm of this kind of practice.you did mention your mom, but generaly i thought nobody exept the baker there had any perticular strong feelings about it as you do now.
also some one there wrote under the name suelee, that she got a licence for a home baking operation.i find this very interesting.i wonder where she lives in the country.first time i hear of such thing as a home license for food.

By Panini (Panini) on Saturday, January 29, 2000 - 05:25 pm: Edit

Zoning varies from state to state, city to city.
You can have your home licenced in some cities here,but you follow the same codes as everyone else. Keeping personal food away from business foods and so forth. Health inspections etc.
I don't have a problem with that either, but I also know that it is very difficult to get insured.
Being under a corperate shield is a big misconseption.I'm an S Corp. and I carry plenty of insurance. You actually are more liable working out of your home, because it now becomes part of the Corp.
The US is a very litigious society unfortunatly. The hotels and clubs are now realizing that if a customers claims they had gotton a piece of glass in their cake that somebody brought in, or the cake falls the liability falls on them first and the baker second. Its very hard today ,to just bake.

By Toots (Toots) on Saturday, January 29, 2000 - 05:37 pm: Edit

Update on me:)

First thank you all for the words of Wisdom, Panini, I will be e-mail you shortly to pick your brain if you do not mind:)

I decide to RAISE my prices:) I do great work, my product more than speaks for itself, and business is really picking up, so I figured that its time I charge what I think I am worth, and I have not had any complaints so far:)

For those of you who mentioned being "legal" I am legal. The area I live in is very easy to get legal in, I have a tax number, zoning permit, Dept of Ag inspections, ect... I feel I at least owe it to my customers to be running a legal business.

TJ,
I live in the US and there are a lot of us legal for home food business. Probable many times more who are not. As I understand it, it can be extremely difficult-immpossible to become legal out of home. I do one day plan to move to a store front, when my kitchen becomes to small to handle the need, and when I am making enought to cover the cost of running a storefront.

Thank you all again.

Amy

By Toots (Toots) on Saturday, January 29, 2000 - 05:37 pm: Edit

Update on me:)

First thank you all for the words of Wisdom, Panini, I will be e-mail you shortly to pick your brain if you do not mind:)

I decide to RAISE my prices:) I do great work, my product more than speaks for itself, and business is really picking up, so I figured that its time I charge what I think I am worth, and I have not had any complaints so far:)

For those of you who mentioned being "legal" I am legal. The area I live in is very easy to get legal in, I have a tax number, zoning permit, Dept of Ag inspections, ect... I feel I at least owe it to my customers to be running a legal business.

TJ,
I live in the US and there are a lot of us legal for home food business. Probable many times more who are not. As I understand it, it can be extremely difficult-immpossible to become legal out of home. I do one day plan to move to a store front, when my kitchen becomes to small to handle the need, and when I am making enought to cover the cost of running a storefront.

Thank you all again.

Amy

By W.DeBord on Saturday, January 29, 2000 - 05:38 pm: Edit

I'm not threatened by home decorators. I don't believe their customers would ever buy from professional pastry chefs.

Yes, you can become legal with the health dept. and state to sell cakes from your home. I don't believe the MAJORITY of people doing that are legal at all. I don't believe the MAJORITY of people doing that make any real money.

Most houses don't burn down, do you think homeowners insurance is a waste? I think a baking accident is more likely to happen to a housewife with less experience then in a professionally setup and run business.

If you are running a business out of your home your reg. insurance will not cover a CUSTOMER who slipped on your stairs (any business related accident). They will not replace any business related object without a rider on your home owners. This was explained to me by my insurance agent when I had a home based business.

P.S. I guess this only matters if you believe there is a need for insurance and have no assets to lose.

By Doucefrance (Doucefrance) on Sunday, January 30, 2000 - 08:03 am: Edit

Does anyone know how to price selfmade gumpaste flowers for wedding cakes?
By the way, I'm a memeber of ICES and I just checked about the pulled and blown sugar demonstrations tj is supposed to have done. Here is the answer I got this morning from Marsha Winbeckler, ICES' newsletter editor:

"Dear Helene,

There is no listing of pulled and blown sugar in last year's demonstration
list.

I know pulled sugar has been done in the past by Mel Lopez who formerly
worked for Wilton, pulled sugar was demonstrated in 1981 by Peter (can't
remember his last name), and I believe the Notters have done similar demos
in recent years; but as far as I know, no French pastry chefs."

Enjoy this
Helene

By Panini (Panini) on Sunday, January 30, 2000 - 08:34 am: Edit

Peter Boyle'
He's great! I learned from him. He was not very traditional, this is why i loved the experience. I believe he was a former glass blower. Wow! I'm going back 15 years.

W.DeBord is absolutly right. You don't need insurance if you've nothing to lose.I have more than I probably need. How would one get liability insurance working out of their home.Thats the big one for me. Property is property, but frivolous law suits are another.
I don't know? Toots e-mail or visit anytime.
panini

By Morgane on Sunday, January 30, 2000 - 12:31 pm: Edit

Helène,

Price depends on a few factors mainly the kind of flowers and the quanity. I charge more if client only wants flowers. Can you give more details on what type of flowers you have to do?


Morgane

By tj on Sunday, January 30, 2000 - 11:05 pm: Edit

helene,you probebly miss understood what i said...
i have never done a demo for ices nor am i a member. as i said i was invited twice to participate by the orgenizers but couldnt make it (if you want their names i will email it to you off the forum).i came to past conventions only as what they call "a wholesale buyer" for the first day to buy decorating equipment.this cost me $30 i believe, as a non member.how ever i do recall seening pulled and blown demos offered by 2 chefs there, i am not sure about where they come from.i did`nt ever get to stay for the 2 day and see any demo`s.i remember seeing a french chef demonstrating pulled sugar in an ices show in florida back in 1994 or 95 but it was not a full scale convention.

By tj on Sunday, January 30, 2000 - 11:25 pm: Edit

the only 2 demos i done was in the ices shows (the cake clubs)with royal icing and gum paste and i had someone to translate me while i was speeking cause back then my english was broken.(i wonder if they remember that?) i also displayed my cakes in the convention befor .it was put oposite to colet peters stand...this was the first time i met nicholas lodge...i realy like his work with flowers...i am sorry i missed his demos...as far as i was told ,any one can do that, or do a demo.
have any of you guys ever done a demo or put a display in ices conventions or shows?
what do you think of thouse shows or conventions?

By tj on Sunday, January 30, 2000 - 11:40 pm: Edit

oh yeh yeh , now i remember what those shows i demonstrated at where,
they were called cake club day of sharing.thats it.thats it.(i was breaking my head trying to remember what it was i participated in ...)as far as i recall ices doesnt orgenize them , they are orgenized by local ices cake club members as a local show.i think they are for one day.i could be mistaken .at 68 my memory is not what it used to be....

By tj on Sunday, January 30, 2000 - 11:46 pm: Edit

as for price for self made sugar flowers, i was charging by the houre, the price of ingredients will not give you a base of price couse they are cheep.
i charged $40 an hour and it took me 3-4 hourse to make just a few sprays of flowers.so it can get expensive.but today you have so many sugar flowers available from companies like cal-java in california, why should you bother do them? they are hand made and inexpensive, so you can make alot of profit on them ,reseling them to the customers as yours...?

By Doucefrance (Doucefrance) on Monday, January 31, 2000 - 07:00 am: Edit

I bother to make them because I happen to have a quality of work that make people wonder if they are real or not. This is the reason why I was teaching at the ENSP in France, where they want only the best.
I intend to kep my work that way, if people are willing to pay for it it's fine.

Morgane, thanks for answering, I need to make an arrangement with 3 gerberas, 5 roses, 2 buds, and some ivy stems, and another with 3 hibiscus flowers, some ivy stems and larger foliage.
If you can give me an idea, just e-mail me.
Thank you for your help
Helene

By W.DeBord on Monday, January 31, 2000 - 07:26 am: Edit

Please answer here, or post it later. I would be interested in what prices you go by. At work it's always such a guessing game. I usually avoid exact prices, but I do have to give the manager a guideline for pricing.

Thank-you

By Morgane on Monday, January 31, 2000 - 11:07 am: Edit

Hélène,

I am not sure I know what gerberas are. Could you please give me the french term for that. Also what kind of buds do you have to make. Rose buds or something else?

Morgane

By tj on Monday, January 31, 2000 - 11:29 am: Edit

i am surprised that in todays busy job place pastry chefs have the time to make detailed sugar flowers...
are there some of you out there that work for a salary for someone as pastry chefs? does your boss allow you to take the time and make sugar flowers?and if they do , how much would they charge ?

By momoreg on Monday, January 31, 2000 - 12:04 pm: Edit

I work for a caterer, on salary, and when clients ask for handmade flowers, my boss asks me to estimate how long that will take me. From that estimate, she comes up with a ball-park price for the cake. If the client is on a budget, we buy flowers, and mix them in with mine. The fortunate thing in my case, is that more often than not, we can save and reuse the flowers for another time. I just rewrap the stems. It's not as easy if they ask for a buttercream icing, so I usually push for the rolled fondant, if I want to save the flowers. You should see how many flowers I have in the storeroom!

By tj on Monday, January 31, 2000 - 06:29 pm: Edit

do you make your flowers from rolled fondunt or gum paste?

By momoreg on Monday, January 31, 2000 - 06:39 pm: Edit

Usually gumpaste, but sometimes fondant.

By Doucefrance (Doucefrance) on Monday, January 31, 2000 - 07:02 pm: Edit

Morgane
The french name for gerbera is the same as in english, it is a kind of large colored "marguerite", often dark pink or red. And yes, the buds are rosebuds.
I work with selfmade flowerpaste which is easier to work with if you want something really thin.
Helene

By Panini (Panini) on Monday, January 31, 2000 - 07:52 pm: Edit

How do you reuse pulled sugar flowers? Do you not have a problem with humidity during the function?
I use chocolate plastique and sometimes fondant depending on what temp.
I find it not profitable to pull sugar if the orders come in spuratically. Don't you have to gear up and pull frequently to make it worth your while. Someone let me know if there are short-cuts in preperation and storage over the last five years.I may get back into it, my tools just sit there.

By W.DeBord on Tuesday, February 01, 2000 - 06:58 am: Edit

I'm pretty certain a gerbera is a daisy. They're called gerbera daisies and they come in many colors(yellow, rust, red, pink, white etc...) and are a bit larger and more perfect shaped than home grown daisies.


They sell them at the local grocerie stores in Chicago when in season.

By Doucefrance (Doucefrance) on Tuesday, February 01, 2000 - 07:25 am: Edit

Panini
I used sugar droplets from Fabilo, you just melt them under your lamp and start working. I stored my finished roses and leaves in plastic containers with silicagel, all I had to do was check the color of the silicagel to avoid humidity. If it was all pink I just microwaved it to blue and put my flowers back on it.
I only pulled every once in a while, but it was no big trouble that way.
Helene

By Panini (Panini) on Tuesday, February 01, 2000 - 05:04 pm: Edit

Doucefrance,
Wow! tell me about Fabilo, is it a distributor?
I'm assuming sugat droplets is a name for a premade sugar. What are the sizes?
Thank you,
That sounds more like fun than work! I disliked boiling.
panini

By tj on Tuesday, February 01, 2000 - 08:37 pm: Edit

fabilo is a school and supplier of sugar and chocolate related company in switzerland, owned by louise and othmar fassbind.i was under the impretion that they have stopped the production of the sugar drops since they started using and selling izomalt so extensively...
any way they have a web site: www.fabilo.ch
to preserve pulled sugar products you simply spray them with edible shelak spray, or food laquer.you can get it from alber uster.
but in general ,i think that if you have access to isomalt, it is far better then regular sugar+glucose+acid recipes, couse it will last for a very very long time.i have some pieces on display for 4 years now with no silica gel at all in the cases and without shelak spray...

By tj on Tuesday, February 01, 2000 - 08:41 pm: Edit

any way..
isomalt is very easy to use.maybe not as easy as the sugar drops, but it will last so much longer.

By Doucefrance (Doucefrance) on Wednesday, February 02, 2000 - 06:36 am: Edit

I just found out that Fabilo doesn't make the sugar droplets anymore, but Jean CREVEUX does commercialise the same item, but I do not know who distributes it
Helene

By tj on Wednesday, February 02, 2000 - 03:36 pm: Edit

i believe that jean creveux sells his sugar drops through matfer , and patisfrance .i will check about it with my supplier...but anyone who knows how to work with sugar ,can work with isomalt.its realy is very very easy to work with.
i cook it with just a drop of water until it just melts. and work it to pulled mass.no heating to high temp or temp monitoring nessesary.no acid needed.no glucose needed.very good easy product.you can even melt it in the microwave.

By BakersDozen on Friday, February 25, 2000 - 05:08 pm: Edit

I just read all of the postings in this section. As one who has operated a home based successful, wholesale baking business for the past 4 years, I was deeply disturbed by the anger displayed by some of the participants. My decision to move my operation homeside, was made when I gave birth to my daughter. Her welfare is my top priority, but unfortunately in this day and age, a full time job is needed. I have a business license, I checked with both the Health Dept and Dept of Agriculture and was told that if the business is strictly wholesale and the end products do not require refrigeration, that a commercial kitchen is not required. The FDA steps in when packaging comes into play, but only if the gross sales excede 500,000.

By BakersDozen on Friday, February 25, 2000 - 05:18 pm: Edit

If I was misguided, I would like to know. I have worked very hard to build a successful business. I can honestly say I have the best of both worlds - I get to do the work that I love, and I get to raise my little girl. Most home based bakers do so for a reason - i.e. children, rent expenses, etc. Why should this bother you so much? Just because I didn't spend 70,000 for a commercial kitchen? I came to this foram for advice from veterans. Instead I read backbiting!! You should be ashamed of yourselves. We are all in this business because we love what we do. I don't know about you, but nothing makes me happier than to see the look on someone's face when I unveil that special cake or they bite into one of my cookies or muffins.

By BakersDozen on Friday, February 25, 2000 - 05:26 pm: Edit

Isn't that what's important here. Maybe I'm a dreamer, but where I come from, (believe it or not, it's NY) I don't care about my competition. I do the best I possibly can and wish my competitors the best. I know I make a wonderful product. If someone out there beats me out on price, well then they beat me out. Bottom line for me is how it taste. Someone can offer a less expensive product, but if it doesn't taste good, people won't buy it again, no matter how cheap it is. My business has been built strictly on word of mouth. I have never advertised and don't intend to. I make a very good living, having a small business. I pay my taxes to Uncle Sam and the State of NY. I have a business account and get my supplies from wholesalers in my area. I'm sorry if that disturbs any of you, but it's what I have to do to make a living to raise my daughter.

By BakersDozen on Friday, February 25, 2000 - 05:26 pm: Edit

Isn't that what's important here. Maybe I'm a dreamer, but where I come from, (believe it or not, it's NY) I don't care about my competition. I do the best I possibly can and wish my competitors the best. I know I make a wonderful product. If someone out there beats me out on price, well then they beat me out. Bottom line for me is how it taste. Someone can offer a less expensive product, but if it doesn't taste good, people won't buy it again, no matter how cheap it is. My business has been built strictly on word of mouth. I have never advertised and don't intend to. I make a very good living, having a small business. I pay my taxes to Uncle Sam and the State of NY. I have a business account and get my supplies from wholesalers in my area. I'm sorry if that disturbs any of you, but it's what I have to do to make a living to raise my daughter.

By BakersDozen on Friday, February 25, 2000 - 05:26 pm: Edit

Isn't that what's important here. Maybe I'm a dreamer, but where I come from, (believe it or not, it's NY) I don't care about my competition. I do the best I possibly can and wish my competitors the best. I know I make a wonderful product. If someone out there beats me out on price, well then they beat me out. Bottom line for me is how it taste. Someone can offer a less expensive product, but if it doesn't taste good, people won't buy it again, no matter how cheap it is. My business has been built strictly on word of mouth. I have never advertised and don't intend to. I make a very good living, having a small business. I pay my taxes to Uncle Sam and the State of NY. I have a business account and get my supplies from wholesalers in my area. I'm sorry if that disturbs any of you, but it's what I have to do to make a living to raise my daughter.

By pam on Friday, February 25, 2000 - 11:43 pm: Edit

I think you sound a little hostile now.Just because you feel others didn't say the right thing to someone, why would you want to do the same thing? I am surprised the laws in ny are such. Here in Chicago you have to have a seperate kitchen, you cannot use the family kitchen. You have to be inspected by the health dept,no pets whatsoever,different refrigerator.What kind of business license do you have? Is it for selling or for manufacturing? I won't pretend to know alot about this,I got just the basics & realized I couldn't do it for anyone other than friends of friends...What kind of stuff do you make that don't need refrigeration? Your cakes don't? What about insurance if someone gets sick? Your homeowners won't cover it if your selling food items. I guess every city has different laws & different degrees of enforcement.

By Toots (Toots) on Saturday, February 26, 2000 - 09:39 am: Edit

I am in NY too. I will answer your ? as best I can. We can use our "family" kitchen as long as we do not have any commercial appliances in it. Once you get commercial appliances you ,must have a seperate kitchen. I am inspected by the Dept of Agriculure, and I carry a seperate business insurance policy. This covers my equipment, and liability. I sell cakes directly to the customer, no wholesaling here. My cake do not need refridgeration, all my fillings are commercial, with perservatives, all my cakes are made from scratch.

Hope I answered all your questions.

Amy

By pam on Saturday, February 26, 2000 - 09:34 pm: Edit

Thanks Amy, I wonder if having non commercial equipment here in Illinois makes a difference. I don't remember anything about that when I checked it out.Can you store them in the refrigerator? I understand now what kinds of cakes i'd have to make.I make all my cakes w buttercream ,(all butter) & I wouldn't want to use all the preservatives. It's good to know exactly what to check out in the future. Now I have cats & a smallish refrigerator.

By Toots (Toots) on Saturday, February 26, 2000 - 10:24 pm: Edit

I can store my cakes in the refrigerator with no problem. My cakes are frosted with an icing that is 1/2 shortening, and 1/2 butter. I make them the night before I need to deliver them, and they do not need refridgeration. The fillings I use are from Henery and Henery, and they are really good. My customers LOVE the supreme raspberry with almost any flavor cake. I buy them by the case, with 24, 2# sleeves in a case. If I need to make a filling that needs refridgeration, I use a local church kitchen, according to the laws here, the church kitchens are inspected, and I can use there kitchen for the items my kitchen is not approved for.

If I can help any further, please let me know

Amy

By Panini (Panini) on Sunday, February 27, 2000 - 09:15 am: Edit

To all,
The point of all this dissagreement is to educate. I personally haven't any problem with anyone working out of his or her home as long as it is legal. I have a problem with the Suzy or the Sam homemaker selling products to the public and not knowing the first thing about sanitation or the preservation of foods. My interest are the consumer not the competition.I have a caterer in my area who has bought from me for 6 months now and has always picked up her cakes. She told me she works out of some restaurant. Last week she wrecks her van and asks me to deliver to her house. My wife comes back and tells me she working out of her kitchen, four people working with 3 dogs running around, filthy kitchen etc. This is what bothers the hell out me!!! She is a big player in the catering business.
I have no idea what the customer received from me.
Did she even refrigerate my product? She could have killed someone not to mention hairs in the food. Anyway, I have respect for all of us who do this, no matter where we do it as long as it is done properly.
panini