on 6" and 8" layers many times the dowels will push back though'making the top crooked

By W.DeBord on Wednesday, April 19, 2000 - 08:45 am: Edit

If there is a cake resting on top of it, yes you should have some support under it. If your cakes aren't sitting flat then you are not cutting your dowels acurate enough, they must all be the exact same length and the correct height in the cake.

By Raine on Wednesday, April 19, 2000 - 11:03 am: Edit

I don"t think question was worded right
For example- Made a 6-10-14 stacked cake,put dowels in 14 and 10. The customer had a heavy ornament for top so used dowels for 6 also.
The cake was fine when I left,when Ireturned next
day the dowels on6 AND10 had pushed up through the
cake at almost 30 degree angle. destroying 10" layer. .Myquestion is- was the 6"too light to hold dowels down,if so ,could Ihave omitted them. Also does any one
know WHY this happened.IT f---ed up my whole morning,and Iwould prefer not to let it happen again Thanks

By Raine on Wednesday, April 19, 2000 - 11:03 am: Edit

I don"t think question was worded right
For example- Made a 6-10-14 stacked cake,put dowels in 14 and 10. The customer had a heavy ornament for top so used dowels for 6 also.
The cake was fine when I left,when Ireturned next
day the dowels on6 AND10 had pushed up through the
cake at almost 30 degree angle. destroying 10" layer. .Myquestion is- was the 6"too light to hold dowels down,if so ,could Ihave omitted them. Also does any one
know WHY this happened.IT f---ed up my whole morning,and Iwould prefer not to let it happen again Thanks

By Raine on Wednesday, April 19, 2000 - 11:04 am: Edit

I don"t think question was worded right
For example- Made a 6-10-14 stacked cake,put dowels in 14 and 10. The customer had a heavy ornament for top so used dowels for 6 also.
The cake was fine when I left,when Ireturned next
day the dowels on6 AND10 had pushed up through the
cake at almost 30 degree angle. destroying 10" layer. .Myquestion is- was the 6"too light to hold dowels down,if so ,could Ihave omitted them. Also does any one
know WHY this happened.IT f---ed up my whole morning,and Iwould prefer not to let it happen again Thanks

By Toots (Toots) on Wednesday, April 19, 2000 - 01:35 pm: Edit

I think what could be happening, is if you are using wooden dowel rods, they could be absorbing moisture from the cake, and expanding. This is why when you go back the cakes are being pushed apart. I always use straws for support. Anyone else?

Amy

By Panini (Panini) on Wednesday, April 19, 2000 - 04:02 pm: Edit

do you use plastic between layers? did the dowels push thriugh the cardbord?

Amy, nothing personal but I would never use straws, you will eventually have problems. I personally think one should use food safe and sanitized plastic. I've seen people using plastic conduit, pvc, all pourus sp? and not food safe. The structure should be steady and stand up on its own for it to be accident proof.

By Raine on Wednesday, April 19, 2000 - 05:37 pm: Edit

I used plastic tubes (Wilton)
Cake was filled with fresh strawberries. Could this have an effect?

By Toots (Toots) on Wednesday, April 19, 2000 - 06:29 pm: Edit

Panini,

Straws are not food safe? I just assumed that since they are sold to be used in the consuption of food, that they would be food safe. Guess I will have to look into that further. Thanks for bringing that to my attention.

I used to use wooden dowel rods, until I read Sylvia Wienstocks book "Sweet Celebrations" She states that she always uses straws, so I gave it a shot. I have not had any problems, and know a lot of decorators who do the same. Why would I run into problems? I would change my supports, if you can tell me why it would cause a problem. ( Of course I will change if it turns out that straws are not food safe too.)


TIA
Amy

By Panini (Panini) on Wednesday, April 19, 2000 - 07:22 pm: Edit

I'm sure straws are food safe. They are fine. You should use whatever your comfortable. I just prefer to use what might be more pleasing to the customer.Pieces of straws,cut or hole being found and pulled out of cakes while the guests are waiting for their piece, oh well, thats just my opinion. Of course a straw would be more pleasing to me than a piece of wood from Home Depot, worst yet wrapped in foil. Unfortuneatly I think alot of my decisions are liability driven. The business end of wedding cakes is not much fun anymore, we do not touch fresh flowers anymore,bad experiences with the florists,many full refunds when we had no liability at all.One claim that a tooth was broken on a pecan, still paying that one.If you have overhead we seem to be the first one hit after buyers remorse.We refunded last week a bride who's mother changed a flavor and the bride went off on the captain. etc.
The suzy homemakers just tell the couples that they have already spent the money and that works.Sorry, venting,

Raine, did you have plastic between the layers??
or cardboard?

By Raine on Wednesday, April 19, 2000 - 11:26 pm: Edit

cardboard,why, would that have made a differece?
I usually use both on pillered cakes.that way it is easier to deliver.

By W.DeBord on Thursday, April 20, 2000 - 07:54 am: Edit

The cardboard could have gotten so moist that it lost it's strength and it was easy for the rods to poke thru. Paninis' question was important...did you cover your cardboard in any way, like parchement or plastic sheet on the cake? If you didn't then the cardboard got moisture from bothsides of board, top cake and bottom frosting touching it.

I usually cover my cardboards with white self adhesive contact paper. Then no cake touches the cardboard to steal moisture or ruin the support of the cardboard.

I have seen MANY books raving about how well the straw system works (by respectable cake decorators). I do wash then dry my wooden dowels as well as I can, just like a cutting board.

At a certain point though our entire kitchen can't claim a perfect "never been touched food product". I know saftey is the goal, we meet all health dept. codes and have insurance. We do our best, but accidents can always happen (like a small nut shell in with the pecans).

By Raine on Thursday, April 20, 2000 - 08:29 am: Edit

no, I didn't cover them.However the problem isn't with the boards.The dowels did not push THROUGH the board. They pushed the board up,so that the cake and board,both,were lifted from the layer below .I thought that maybe the top cake was too light,and it was unable to keep the supports in place.If that was the case then would Ihave been better off without them.I have never NOT put supports in lower tier (too risky for me).But if under these conditions again,do you think I should just leave them out?Possibly to avoid this same thing happening in the future.

By Kathyf (Kathyf) on Thursday, April 20, 2000 - 02:33 pm: Edit

W.DeBord - Depending on what size dowels you use, you can slip the dowel into a plastic straw. I wouldn't want to trust straws alone, but they make the dowels more sanitary.

By momoreg on Thursday, April 20, 2000 - 02:42 pm: Edit

Raine,
The tubes you're talking about sound like the ones I mentioned (similar to toilet paper tubes, but plastic). If that's what you're referring to, I have experienced the same thing. I know know why it happens; it seems like suction, but it doesn't happen every time. I think it may be more common with a very dense cake.

By Raine on Thursday, April 20, 2000 - 06:36 pm: Edit

momoreg
Yes,those sound like the ones I used.Don't think I will ever again!
You would think they would test there product better than that.At least add a disclaimer to the packaging.

W.DeBord
Contact paper? Like the stuff for lining shelves? Sounds interesting.I'll have to try that.I usually use freezer paper and corn syrup.Is the contact paper okay to use in between two stacked layers or just for the bottom board?

By Panini (Panini) on Thursday, April 20, 2000 - 07:03 pm: Edit

If you had these plastic tubes between each layer and the boards did not give way,the structure should have stood on it's own. Right?
It would be impossible for the structure to fail, unless the tubes collapsed.This is amazing!
Did you use 4 tubes per layer?
Was the outside of your cake a larger diameter than you boards?
The tubes lifted the upper cake? That is spooky!
Were these tubes hollow?
I'm sorry for all the questions but you've got my attention now. Suction-expansion? Was the cake frozen than thawed with the tubes inside?

By Raine on Thursday, April 20, 2000 - 09:06 pm: Edit

Spooky is right ,but closer to a nightmare!
You should have seen it. It's actually quite funny when I look back on it. QUICK SOMEONE CALL N.A.S.A!!! the laws of gravity have been defied in my work station!!!!

getting back to the point....

I put 4 tubes in the 14" and 1 tube in the 10" and 6". Since the tubes are about 1 1/2" across I really couldn't use more than that.

No,there was approx. a 1/4" lip around cake after base icing

Yes,the tubes are hollow.

The cake was chilled(not frozen)at start, it was room temp when finished

I always used to use wooden dowel(without any strange phenomenons). Think I'll go back.

By d. on Saturday, April 22, 2000 - 04:40 pm: Edit

I use sturdy plastic drinking straws(the thicker ones) when making stacked cakes. Never had a problem(and I've made big, heavy cakes transported already stacked). I prefer straws because they are food safe, no chance of getting splinters in cake, super cheap and the ease of cutting them all evenly. Once cake is stacked I sharpen a long smooth wooden dowel(3/8" 0r 1/2" wide), cut it as tall as cake and hammer it through center until I reach the bottom cake.

By Panini (Panini) on Saturday, April 22, 2000 - 05:12 pm: Edit

D.
Thanks for the chuckle.We just closed down after a draining but very sucessful Easter push.I've just poured myself a cold one and I have this vision of you up on a couple of milk crates with this hammer and stick, pounding away.
I absolutely mean no insult by this, in fact it sounds like a very good idea to prevent shifting.
Panini

By momoreg on Saturday, April 22, 2000 - 06:32 pm: Edit

I would think that the force of the pounding on the cardboard cake bottoms would at least make the buttercream crack. No?

By Raine on Saturday, April 22, 2000 - 08:20 pm: Edit

I like the "idea" of drinking straws in smaller layers,but you would have to add more per tier in the heavier ones than wooden.That's why changed to tubes.I think most consistant way is with dowels.They may not be as sanitary as plastic,but I can live with that.My health inspector hasn't complained.

A giant stake!Sounds hokey to me.What's the point of using plastic straws,if your shoving a log down the center? You must be a better carpenter than I. The best way to prevent shifting is to walk carefully.
I've been a professional decorator 10 years,and that is THE weirdest thing I have EVER heard.

By Panini (Panini) on Saturday, April 22, 2000 - 11:15 pm: Edit

Raine,
Please have an open mind,this is not even close to being close to the weirdest.The weirdest thing I've heard this month was a levetating cake.It certainly does not warrant screaming THE,EVER. I would never critisize you and tell you I think using straws is so grocery and weird ,I have more respect for you. What constitutes the title "Professional Decorator"?
Center post colums have been around for a long time. This is just his or her version.Maybe he or she walks carefully and carries a big stick.

By Raine on Sunday, April 23, 2000 - 02:18 pm: Edit

Panini,d.,
Sorry if I offended. Easter week always gives me a bad attitude.

I'll try keeping an open mind about the stake thing.I guess if it works for him/her I won't argue it.He/she is still better with a hammer than I'll ever be.

Levetating cake?Like a floating tier stand? Any more info on that.(promise I won't scream).

"straws are grocery and weird"
Are they? Thought they would work will for a small cake. I guess that is still up in the air.I'll have to try it first.
I'm not defending either side ,grocery vs. independents,but I've worked in both. You get what you pay for. If you can't afford the real thing, than go to the grocery.

A professioal decorator is someone who decorates as a career not a hobby.

Okay I'll give on the center post thing,but still sound like a strange way to go about it.

" walks carefully and carries a big stick"

Ha Ha ,way funny.Remind me not to piss d. off.

By Toots (Toots) on Sunday, April 23, 2000 - 02:33 pm: Edit

I think the idea of the dowel down the center, is to make the cake more stable during transport. Although I do not do this, because I am afraid the while I am hammering the dowel through, It will bend my boards, and cause more trouble.

Amy

By d. on Sunday, April 23, 2000 - 02:53 pm: Edit

I'm actually surprised it's not a common thing to do. No offense taken.My mentor, an amazingly talented European chef, taught me this. The number of straws increase the bigger the cake is. And I sharpen the end of the wooden dowel so it goes through the cakes(and cardboards) with no problem. Or you can make precut a small hole through the center of the cake boards before assembling the cake. Sounds funny but it's worked great for me and since we transport a lot of these cakes already stacked, they do not shift at all. I guess each person has their own idea of what works ---- and since this way is cheaper and more practical for me, I'll keep on doing it. By the way. the boards don't bend nor does the buttercream crack(French meringue not the Wilton stuff).

By Raine on Sunday, April 23, 2000 - 05:15 pm: Edit

I can understand needing that much extra support if someone else is transporting,especially if their not capable of making on site repairs.The other question that comes to mind is, how would it be served? I feel safe assuming this is not done by you.
Do you remove it after delivery?
Do they play merry-go-round the table to cut around it?
Or is it displayed on a rotating plate?

Agian, I'm not trying to offend,it's just curiosity.

By Toots (Toots) on Sunday, April 23, 2000 - 05:22 pm: Edit

Raine,
What the decorators I know of do, is they remove the dowel after delivery.

Amy

By Raine on Sunday, April 23, 2000 - 06:47 pm: Edit

Wouldn't it cause the cake to shift and settle more with all that pounding and pulling?
I understand that everybody has their own techniques,and some may find this works. But this is something I would have to see, to believe it safe.

Had a bride last week wanted a plaid design in forest green and violet.She brought in a picture from a magazine of similar cake done in fondante(very pretty).But I can't think of any way to adapt her colors to it,especially in buttercream.Do I send her elsewhere,or do the ugly cake and risk having to give refund? Her mind is absolutely set on this plaid thing.Any suggestions?

By Panini (Panini) on Sunday, April 23, 2000 - 07:44 pm: Edit

Raine,
You did not offend me.Sometimes here, you can learn or embellish someone ideas.

Do the fondant. I'm pretty sure I know that cake. Make sure you charge her for the labor.

Good point about the merry go round.

I must disagree about tthe professional thing.I know alot of decorators decorating for profit that don't know the first thing about it.

We build all of our cakes on site.The decorators are usually 1 or 2 cakes behind the delivery.

French Meringue?

have a good one.
panini

By d. on Sunday, April 23, 2000 - 09:45 pm: Edit

sory, I meant Italian meringue buttercream.
To serve, remove the top tier(or rather pull it up and out since the dowel runs through). Then pull out dowel and can cut cake from next layer down to the next. Since I'm the only pastry chef for the company, I can't be in 2 places at the same time hence the cakes are sent already finished and stacked.

By Raine on Monday, April 24, 2000 - 02:28 am: Edit

I would like very much to do the fondant,she didn't like it.also didn't like $$$ for fondant.She wants buttercream,"like mom used to make".Think what she is picturing in her head and what it will actually look like are two very different things.The plaid has some special meaning for groom,so must be included.Tried to talk into using material as deco (bows,drape,etc.)But definitely wants all sides, all tiers covered in plaid with a top and bottom boarder and lots of purple roses. Just don't see this looking good espesially as the very pretty ,very pastel cake as a reference.Most brides are willing to accept opinions,but not this one, her mind is set.Hoping she'll go elsewhere.Don't want to lose customer,but don't want dissatisfied one either.

Any thoughts?