Hi,
Looking for recipe for yeast free bread of organic levain,a starter of spelt,rye,wheat,seasalt and spring water, option of baking in wood fired brick oven if nessesary.
Thank You ,
John Gerometta
jgerometta@aol.com

By makubo on Saturday, August 28, 1999 - 02:58 pm: Edit

Why would you want to add salt into a starter?
Check a book called the Italian Baker.

By Matt (Matt) on Saturday, August 28, 1999 - 08:53 pm: Edit

Also check out Bread Alone, The village Baker and Breads from La Brea Bakery.

What is it that you are trying to do?

Making bread with all natural starters is fairly involved. You have alot of work ahead of you.

Regards,
Matt

By jeee2 on Sunday, August 29, 1999 - 07:29 am: Edit

http://www.pipeline.com/~rosskat/wizzi.html

By makubo on Sunday, August 29, 1999 - 11:39 am: Edit

Excellent contribution, where did you get this one?

By jeee2 on Sunday, August 29, 1999 - 03:57 pm: Edit

Makubo,

got it from the sourdough news list.
rec.food.sourdough
I don't know how I subscribed but I'm on it now along with the rec.food.chocolate and others.

Regards, Gerard

By John on Sunday, August 29, 1999 - 04:45 pm: Edit

Gerard's Breads of Tradition,I found while vacationing in northern Vermont.The explanation of the bread,goes like this.It is a 3 grain sourdough bread made from an organic "levain" or starter,plus spelt,wheat,rye,sea salt and spring water,hand shaped,and baked in a traditional wood-fired brick oven.Because Gerard's Bread contains no yeast,oil or sugar,it has a deeper flavor and stales less quikly than other breads.I would like to try to duplicate this bread at home if it is at all possible.
Thanks John

By jeee2 on Sunday, August 29, 1999 - 08:14 pm: Edit

John,

Thats typical of sourdough natural starter breads, whether 3 grain or 7 grain they have similar characteristics as you have described.
Follow the link I posted previously to get an idea of whats involved.
Gerards Breads have no added yeast but they contain natural yeast, flour also contains saccarides(mono sugars) which is broken down into polysaccarides (or something like that). Its not the processed non fibre saccarides so its safe for
diabetics. On the down side, its a longer process.

Cheers, Gerard

Cheers, Gerard

By Matt (Matt) on Sunday, August 29, 1999 - 11:05 pm: Edit

John-

Do you remember the name of the Bakery? We have a licensee in Vt. Just courious. I haven't seen that recipe, but you description of it sounds typical of how our breads are described.


Regards,
Matt

By Matt (Matt) on Sunday, August 29, 1999 - 11:09 pm: Edit

Gerard-

You'll find that the rec.food.sourdough is occupied be a bunch of know-it-alls. I only visit from time to time. There are a couple of nice people there. The residents there seem to think that there is only one way to do things, love to mess things up a bit when I have nothing better to do.

Cheers,

Matt

By DEV on Monday, August 30, 1999 - 04:29 pm: Edit

>flour also contains saccarides(mono sugars) which is broken down into polysaccarides (or something like that).<

Actually just the opposite Polysacharides (starch) are broken down in to disacharides (maltose) by amylase enzymes which are added to the flour by adding malted barley flour. Yeast also contains an enzyme called invertase which breaks sucrose into dextrose and fructose.
Which can then be utilized by the yeast for fermentation. Maltose cannot be used by yeast until it's been broken down by another enzyme called maltase, But the yeast will use up all the other sugars first before it produces maltase.

By DEV on Monday, August 30, 1999 - 04:48 pm: Edit

>Because Gerard's Bread contains no yeast,oil or sugar,it has a deeper flavor and stales less quikly than other breads.<
It may stale less quickly than other breads, but that has to do with the long fermentation times that are required for sourdough breads not the lack of yeast, oil, and sugar. Secondly, all bread contains yeast and sugar whether they put any in or not doesn't matter it's there or the bread wouldn't rise.
So enough nitpicking. There is some good advice on this page, if you bother to learn the basics of breadbaking and then sourdough breadbaking you'll find you can make any bread just from the decription. I really like Joe Ortiz book, "the village baker" Dan Leaders book is not too bad, I'm unfortunately a bit biased against Leader because I know a bread baker who went to one of his seminars and told me that Leader doesn't know his butt from his oven door when it comes to baking bread, but that he has hired some outstanding bakers to work for him.

By jeee2 on Tuesday, August 31, 1999 - 02:31 am: Edit

Dev,

Dan Leader wasn't trained as a baker, you'll find almost all the big names with books fit the similar description. They are better at publishing than baking. They come from other careers they've tired of. Books by talented bakers are very rare.
I've got 6 and most are well out of print.

Microbiology has no use in a bakery, it happens but understanding it doesn't get the bread baked, talent and skill comes from feel and practice.
I can just imagine everyone at Leaders class writing down the jibberish chemistry, as if that will teach them how to bake, delusions...

Cheers, Gerard

By makubo on Tuesday, August 31, 1999 - 10:03 am: Edit

Three cheers for the TV foodies, I've worked together with a few of them and when the heat is on, most them start to mistake their arses for their elbows.
In regards to the chemistry I dissent. Knowledge of it will not teach them to bake(and not only bake) per se, however a thourough understanding of the processes involved is inmeasurably valuable when it comes to explaining the why's to a 'young one as well as for troubleshooting .

By Dev (Dev) on Tuesday, August 31, 1999 - 10:17 am: Edit

Ah Gerard,
I'm going to have to agree with you and disagree with you on the subject of baking science. I know plenty of scientists with phd's in baking science who couldn't bake a muffin if their life depended on it, I also know Master Bakers who know nothing of science who are fantastic bakers. So is a knowledge of baking science necessary? No. But is it helpfull? Yes. In my own experience learning baking sciece has helped me become a much better baker.
I'm always surprised when people disparage science, they like to think of themselves as "Artistes" and think that learning science would somehow diminish them. I agree that there is no substitute for "feel and practice", the only way to become a good baker is by baking. But baking is chemistry and in the case of bread biochemistry and having a good understanding of what's going on can only help you.

By Matt (Matt) on Tuesday, August 31, 1999 - 10:43 am: Edit

"is inmeasurably valuable when it comes to explaining the why's to a 'young one as well as for troubleshooting . "

I have a fair idea of the science involved, but when I make the mistake and start to explain what's going on to a "young one," the eye glaze over. They just want to here, "When it's cold out side add warm water(Can't use terms like temper it's too comlicated) and when it's real hot add ice."

Can you tell what our help situation is like :-<

Matt

By jeee2 on Tuesday, August 31, 1999 - 02:43 pm: Edit

If you know what you're doing in the first place there shouldn't be troubleshooting, do it right the first time.
I see and read a LOT of chemistry analysis related to bread, I get the impression none of them can actually bake consistently so they withdraw to dough psychobabble. See rec.dourdough.news
My brother went the education route and remarks how they taught him all this stuff in college but he's forgotten it all, what he does use is the practical stuff, same as me.
Chemistry analysis is usefull in a factory setting where they have 60000 loaves on the line.

Sourdough bread was made very well long before anyone put it under a microscope, its only recently become an obsession, rather a means to prove ones knowledge but the proof is ...
you know where. As always.

Cheers, Gerard