i mean come on!
bakers should come second, it should be called the "Pastry Chefs, and bakers Forum"
Pastry with a BIG "P"
and bakers with a small "b"
how come bakers get top billing???
huh?
Pastry Chefs TEACH the bakers everything they know? Right?
WE have to go in early to help them, they NEVER come in early to help us.
whine, whine, whine, whine...............
do you know all the things that WE do???
why we turn the ovens on and make coffee, and see what we can bitch about today and, and, and....
why just the other day i was talking to a bunch of European Pastry Chefs and they had the same complaint, "WHY ME............WHY?"
we not only find recipes, we INVENT recipes, ever hear of a baker doing THAT??
Huh? Huh?
Whine, Whine, Whine.
we have to make everything look so good even if it's tasteless, why, we have to make it so it is on that horrible cart for HOURS!
so come on!
Change it, change it, change it, change it.......

By Chefmanny (Chefmanny) on Thursday, August 29, 2002 - 08:01 pm: Edit

What's the difference between the baker and a pastry Chef?
The Chef is the one with the oars out of the water!
No, no, no, I said the oars!!!!!

By Chefmanny (Chefmanny) on Thursday, August 29, 2002 - 08:01 pm: Edit

U R going to get banned!!!!!

By Corey (Corey) on Thursday, August 29, 2002 - 10:57 pm: Edit

nothing like a fine whine...

By Mbw (Mbw) on Friday, August 30, 2002 - 05:25 am: Edit

Pastry Chefs TEACH the bakers??

As I have known them they are two completely different jobs. Bakers make bread, pastry chefs make dessert right? I have NEVER met a pastry chef that could teach the baker how to make better bread than he already could. Oh and no need to DEFINE the two for me, or send me to some weird web site.

Bakers: Calm and very Zen in nature
pastry chef: Not quite as calm and zen

By Chefspike (Chefspike) on Friday, August 30, 2002 - 08:47 am: Edit

where have you worked?
i've never known a real pastry chef who couldn't bake better than the baker.
don't define the two? well then don't make incorrect remarks like that above.
i would have thought you'd know better, being an owner and all.
lets see, who was it that said:
"Your only as good as who you hire"
i know it was someone who knew his biz, a talented, smart guy. i just can't place it.
but that guy knew that when you hire a Pastry Chef, that Pastry Chef knew how to do EVERYTHING.
i don't know any weird web sites, do you? tell us.
being up there in San Fran you must know some real weird, sick one's.
and Pastry Chef's are very calm, hell look at me!
i'm calm, I'M CALM!!!!!!!!!
I'VE BEEN NOTHING BUT CALM!!!!

By Chefmanny (Chefmanny) on Friday, August 30, 2002 - 03:42 pm: Edit

You guys have been sniffing a little to much pastry cream boys, girls, undecided!!!!!!

By Mbw (Mbw) on Friday, August 30, 2002 - 09:56 pm: Edit

He He.. couldn't or wouldn't? As most only do it when they HAVE to.

BTW: Over 50 different employers so far!! (I'm 38)

MacCallum House Restaurant, Tony's deli, Chocolate Mousse cafe', La vals Pizza, Togo's, Mesa Restaurant, Dennys', Hayatt Regency Anahiem, St. Marys Rectory, Zovs' Bistro, John Pauls Bistro, Hubbba Hubba Catering, Turnip Rose Catering, American Eagle Catering, A Dixie Doodle Catering, Posh Parties Catering, Sorenson Catering, McKinnas Creek Restaurant, Events etc, Inn at the Opera, Diamond Street Restaurant, Brain Wash Cafe and Laundrymat (no really), Hotel Portico, Hastings Lawschool cafe, Lupans Restaurant, Melons Catering, to name a few..sorry to those I missed, and I left out my Hotel Audio Visual, sound engineering jobs AKA my days with Spinal Tap.

I have mostly worked in small restaurants (25-80 seats), where the baking was done by dishwashers, prep cooks or a hired baker that did only bread. In the latter case the bread made by the "Baker" often kicked ass on the pastry chefs. The pastry chef would make sloppy rounds, and just showed less attention than the regular baker, or even the dishwasher. As I have been fi.. er um.. around a bit, I have seen this more than once. You may be able to do a better job if you do it every day, but even YOU will loose your edge if you delegate certain tasks for a few years. Nothing like a master chef being showed up by a prep cook.. Kinda cute huh?

What YOU are talking has not been the rule in my experience.. But I have seen it too. I knew one French chef, that arrived at 5AM baked off muffins, and scones, made a few fresh fruit tarts or other treats, cut fresh fruit, set the buffet table, cooked omelets to order for the hotel guests, prepped lunch, cooked lunch, and then baked our bread for dinner, fresh hamburger buns for roomservice, THEN began cleaning up WHILE making staff meal...With a glass of wine in his hand of course.

In comes the night crew of 4 they look at him and sneer. "The kitchen is a mess!" He is drinking at 2:30pm" "Breakfast takes no skill it's DINNER that matters" Sound familliar? Yep students from the CCA. Oh joy!

As to temper? I have met more angry pastry chefs than bread bakers..Maybe their shift ends too early for me to tell, as they have all gone home before I start work.

An owner?

As soon as you buy a motor home your driving skills take a dive along with your IQ. Same with owning a business. The day I snapped back at an employee for asking me to order coffee, I had to step back, and run a check.. As it were..

By Chefspike (Chefspike) on Friday, August 30, 2002 - 10:55 pm: Edit

50 employers!?
park the motor home and stay somewhere for awhile.
christ, i thought i moved around a lot.
look, i don't know these places, but pastry chefs are top dogs in the shop.
if they can't do it, then they are not pastry chefs
thats just the way it is.
ask any german, or french, swiss, or austrian chef
thats the way i learned, thats the way i teach.
what good is having someone with a title that can't teach? why hire someone that just knows pastry and can't bake?
it's against all the laws of nature damn-it!

By Chefmanny (Chefmanny) on Saturday, August 31, 2002 - 08:24 am: Edit

BMW, tell us more about St. Mary's Rectumry!
50 jobs, Wow!, I thought I was bad! In this industry you kind of jump around when you start in the business in order to get experience. I did. You either stay with one of those first jobs and stay there most of your working life or you keep jumping and before you know it you've had 50 jobs! Now, here is another dilemma you hear at job interviews, Hum young man you seem to jump around quite a bit here. Oh, that's because I was trying to get the most experience I could sir. Oh Ok, I understand. You do that for 10 years and you change jobs every year and you have had 10 jobs at least, how much experience do you need? In my opinion if you change the type of cuisine or business that's progress, ie: country club then you go to an Italian restaurant then a Frech, then a hotel, then a caterer....and so on.
If you go from one Denny's to another, to another that's not professional growth....sorry!
Sometimes you are damned if you do or damned if you don't!!!!!

By Catergreat (Catergreat) on Saturday, August 31, 2002 - 09:26 am: Edit

what does mbw stand for? 'make better wages?' jeez, that resume is offensive..... are there prospective employers who would call that experience?

I mean, when someone hires you do you tell them you are looking for a home, a place to settle down and grow?

yeah yeah, I buy that.... man you need to get a hold of yourself!!


..... no, I am not talking about chicken choking manny....

By Chefspike (Chefspike) on Saturday, August 31, 2002 - 10:26 am: Edit

hey guys, he mentions that list only as a example
of some of the places that (had a pastry chef that didn't bake?)
i was not getting on him for moving around.
i guess he has'nt worked in too many places where there is a correct order of/in the kitchen and where the pastry (person)did their job.
no fault of his.

By Corey (Corey) on Saturday, August 31, 2002 - 02:44 pm: Edit

might be woman?

By Mbw (Mbw) on Tuesday, September 03, 2002 - 12:20 pm: Edit

Might be Woman?? MBW?? LOL

I have always been in touch with my feminine side, but as far as gender goes.. Male.

I also count, part time jobs, one day events/festivals, MOM when she had me assembling block clocks for $$, telemarketing jobs. Some of these jobs were held AT THE SAME TIME!

Longest at one job 3+ years. Not counting my own independant work (been 10 years doing that)

By Mbw (Mbw) on Tuesday, September 03, 2002 - 12:38 pm: Edit

A resume is like hair, the longer it gets, the more it needs trimming to look good.

You think I would LIST 50 employers? A resume like that would look more like a rap sheet than a resume. Besides I remember when I used to ADD to it to make it look good, now I pick "The most relevant experience" for each job, but it has been a while since I have had a formal inerview.

On my last "REAL" interview, the chef had no questions about my qualifications but did ask me these things.

#1 "Your a football fan right?" "No." I replied.

#2 "Do you like Reggae music?" "Uh sure I like most music."

"Hm??" He seemed worried, gave me a long look and asked

#3 "well you DO watch the Simpsons DON'T you?" "Oh of course." I said

"Your hired"

By Chefspike (Chefspike) on Thursday, September 05, 2002 - 12:43 am: Edit

hey beamer.......no football???
you must be a hockey fan....
it starts up here pretty soon, another hockey season......
ahhhh,..."The Church of Ice"
blood, sweat, fighting and squids!
it's been away much too long....months!
best game in the world!! can't wait.
you don't need a resume' any more, you own your own place, so you gonna tell us what it's called?
we know your in San Fran.
and you cater, is that right

By Dustman (Dustman) on Thursday, September 05, 2002 - 03:09 am: Edit

PASTRY CHEFS VS. BAKERS
And the winner is... the chef whose head isn't up his/hers buttocks. Give me a break. This sounds like the genocide in Ruanda. I am niether a "baker" or "pastry chef" ,but, thanks to Julia Child I can bake bread and make puff pastry without a cheater, oops, I mean sheeter. Oh yeah, I can also bake and decorate purty cakes. If you want my opinion ( which you don't) It all comes down to what you want to do. Can't we all just get along?...

By the way I can cook dinner to.

By Mbw (Mbw) on Thursday, September 05, 2002 - 01:43 pm: Edit

No winners so far then. Yes we can all get along. I even posted a link to the lyrics for Kumbya here somewhere. Your right that it matters more what you do, than what you are called. Then again title often reflects in your paycheck, but there is nothing like having a customer like your stuff "Boy you shure have a purty cake"

Sports: NONE, "0", ZIP, Not ANY!

I enjoy showtoons, I fish, camp, hike, ride motorcycles, and watch alot of public TV. I play foosball does that count?

MY place: No more (insert evil ex-girlfriend/partner story here BTW she was a pastry chef Grrrr). Besides the cafe was too popular on the weekends, and distracted me from catering. I now use contract kitchens (we have a few here in SF you can use if you provide the proof of insurance, etc.), and sub-contract most of my lunch/breakfast deliveries. I am starting to develop a few "Associates" as my ass is still sore from the last "Partner". Just for giggles I think the old Web site is up, www.ebbtidecafe.com and you can see the old evil ex herself. She did very well with NO capital investment, I must have done it for love.

By Chefrev (Chefrev) on Thursday, September 05, 2002 - 03:34 pm: Edit

Hello all, thought I'd weigh in on this:

Mbw: OUCH! Hope things go better in the catering thing cuz...damn! That partner thing sux. Love and business don't (always) mix.

As to baker vs. pastry chef. I've done both, sometimes at the same time, and I definitely like being a baker better. I'm not anal retentive enough to be a great pastry chef tho I'm no slouch if I do say so. But bread is definitely my first love! yep, if you can knead dough you don't need therapy to get out your issues; just beat on the dough. You never saw Granny go postal from repressed aggression, did ya? She took it out on the bread! AND, aside from the cathartic value of making bread, you get to eat it too. How good is that? I may be overstating it a little for effect, but who cares.

IMHO
Chefrev