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| By W.DeBord on Tuesday, January 25, 2000 - 04:21 pm: Edit |
"People take it very personally when I criticize them" do you like to be criticized? Your points had tones that offend. Try a different approach and people will exchange with you in a non-personal manner.
Alot of the people here seem to have started at the sink and learned while working in the kitchen the hard way. We have talked about the issues you brought up, many here would agree with you. There is another side that Mikeh has taught us, not to lump all students together.
There are some attitute problems here with SOME of our youth. It's a capitalist society and they want their share quickly because they see false examples in the media. They will learn when they get into the work force things don't come as easy as they thought. What country doesn't have issues?
| By W.DeBord on Tuesday, January 25, 2000 - 04:32 pm: Edit |
It doesn't suprise me that a business you started here didn't work. We have different tastes like it or not and it's not for ANYONE to judge whom is right and whom is tasteless. We are different! I've interviewed with people who have stressed they don't want that "old world European pastries style", they want new ideas and styles.
I believe that Americans will greatly influence and change the cooking arts just as we have in other artistic fields. Talent is not something one country owns or keeps. The rest of the world may have given birth to cooking because they existed before America was established. Watch us we take everything to new heights.
| By Panini (Panini) on Tuesday, January 25, 2000 - 06:29 pm: Edit |
We are a melting pot here. I was very fortunate to grow up in NY where I could find many different ethnic foods,not from restaurants but friends.This all contributes to my style. The more sucessful chefs here in the US have their own style.tj mentions the bakeshop in France, I have family in Paris and Zurich. People do frenquent the bakeries, but out of tradition not a want for the product. A fine bakery in every town is a total misconception! dirt floors and uncooled cases don't get it for me.
Anyway I personally feel a style is more important than trying to clone old recipes and chefs
panini
| By Doucefrance (Doucefrance) on Tuesday, January 25, 2000 - 07:06 pm: Edit |
Merci Morgane, c'est exactement ce que je pense!
You are right Panini, America is a melting pot and I feel at home here because I can find my origins and not feel like a stranger.(Born in belgium from a polish mother , raised in Holland and maried in france with an italian!).
America is a country where you can be yourself, keep your traditions, share others' culture and bring your own creativity.
I am a pastry chef in a french restaurant in Florida where I make french pastry and also all the good things I took here and there in Belgium, Italy, Germany, Poland and the United States.
I read this forum and pick up ideas, recipes and enjoy what you all share, your passion, your knowledge and your creativity.
Learning from others is the most interesting thing for me.
Thanks to all of you for what you give me and I hope to be able to give some back to others too.
Helene
| By Doucefrance (Doucefrance) on Tuesday, January 25, 2000 - 07:06 pm: Edit |
Merci Morgane, c'est exactement ce que je pense!
You are right Panini, America is a melting pot and I feel at home here because I can find my origins and not feel like a stranger.(Born in belgium from a polish mother , raised in Holland and maried in france with an italian!).
America is a country where you can be yourself, keep your traditions, share others' culture and bring your own creativity.
I am a pastry chef in a french restaurant in Florida where I make french pastry and also all the good things I took here and there in Belgium, Italy, Germany, Poland and the United States.
I read this forum and pick up ideas, recipes and enjoy what you all share, your passion, your knowledge and your creativity.
Learning from others is the most interesting thing for me.
Thanks to all of you for what you give me and I hope to be able to give some back to others too.
Helene
| By Doucefrance (Doucefrance) on Tuesday, January 25, 2000 - 07:07 pm: Edit |
Merci Morgane, c'est exactement ce que je pense!
You are right Panini, America is a melting pot and I feel at home here because I can find my origins and not feel like a stranger.(Born in belgium from a polish mother , raised in Holland and maried in france with an italian!).
America is a country where you can be yourself, keep your traditions, share others' culture and bring your own creativity.
I am a pastry chef in a french restaurant in Florida where I make french pastry and also all the good things I took here and there in Belgium, Italy, Germany, Poland and the United States.
I read this forum and pick up ideas, recipes and enjoy what you all share, your passion, your knowledge and your creativity.
Learning from others is the most interesting thing for me.
Thanks to all of you for what you give me and I hope to be able to give some back to others too.
Helene
| By d. on Wednesday, January 26, 2000 - 11:49 am: Edit |
I echo Doucefrance's sentiments! It just saddens me that someone like tj with all of his experience and knowledge in pastry would have such a view. Specially when involved in helping shape future bakers and pastry-makers. There will always be traditionalists and innovators and some who fall in between. I too am a product of very different cultures(Austrian/German, Italian, Filipino, Venezuelan and Chinese) and it's great, like Panini said,to be living in this grand melting pot. I appreciate the fact that where I work some days I get to make apple strudel, Danish and croissants; and others I do muffins, cookies ans scones.
| By tj on Wednesday, January 26, 2000 - 03:07 pm: Edit |
morgane and helene,
it is not polite to write in a language that the others dont understand.i can replay to you in 8 different languages.so here is one every body understand.i am here to make money ,and i assure both of you ladies that i make 5 times as much as you in your jobs. thanks for the "worm advice" but i will go back to france to retire after i meet my financial goals. frankly it is not your business why i am in the states.so keep your noses and your sarcastic advices where they belong!
| By tj on Wednesday, January 26, 2000 - 03:10 pm: Edit |
hey helene, how about sharing with every one the name of the restaurant where you work in florida?
i have alot of students that came from florida.maybe some of them know you...
| By tj on Wednesday, January 26, 2000 - 03:13 pm: Edit |
so every body,
i feel this discution should end at this point .we just keep on grinding water here...
i will start reading all the other topics on this forum and give my insight when i think it will help.
stay happy every one .
tj.
| By mikebel on Wednesday, January 26, 2000 - 07:18 pm: Edit |
Well I am hoping this is not a generalisation of all french pastry chefs because if so I wouldnt even bother goin to that country on my working holiday because what tj thinks of Americans imagine what he would think of me a pastry chef from New Zealand only out of his apprentiship for 18 mnths lol, seriously though tj I really believe what you have said in this forum is your opinion, but shez mate you sound like a real plonker a person who instead of helping someone out with a technique or a problem you are just being un fairly critical and making rash generalisations
~~~~~mike~~~~~~~
| By Morgane on Wednesday, January 26, 2000 - 09:39 pm: Edit |
Did it ever occured to you that I used french because I am more comfortable writing in french then in english. But if you want everybody to know what I said here is the translation:
"You seem to have many things to say about americans and the USA. If one listen to you there is no worst place on earth where one should live. Why stay then? Go back to France if life there is so sweet and stop complaining and repeating always the same boring stuff."
...
| By Morgane on Wednesday, January 26, 2000 - 09:40 pm: Edit |
I think you are a very small and unhappy person. Who else would get his kick putting down and insulting everyones he meets.
Are you that insecure that you have to brag about the money you make? Who cares about money, there is more to life then money. There is such a thing as pride. The pride one should put in his/her work and the satisfaction you get from a job well done. Money doesn't determine self worth. I hope you really like your money because it is all you seem to have. Furthermore I think you represent the streotypical french, full of himself and arrogant that everybody hates.
As far as I am concern I have nothing to learn from someone like you and I will not be dragged into your insignificant discussion.
Morgane
| By tj on Wednesday, January 26, 2000 - 10:51 pm: Edit |
oh give it a rest already ,
and wipe away those tears...
| By Gord (Gord) on Thursday, January 27, 2000 - 01:07 am: Edit |
tj,
I have read this forum for some months now and have seen the regular contributors provide a lot of assistance to others less trained or talented than themselves. I have also seen them receive valuable information in areas where they admit they are not as skilled as they would like. I have received a lot of benefit from their expertise and have been involved in some of the discussions (once a very heated one which ended up getting mostly deleted-for the best).
I admit I was curious when you came on board as to whether you were joking or serious. You are, apparently, serious in your comments. For your consideration, here is an excerpt from George's "Getting Started" section of this board:
"When writing your messages, please use the same courtesy that you would show when speaking face-to-face with someone. Flames, insults, and personal attacks will not be tolerated. It's fine to disagree strongly with opinions, ideas, and facts, but always with respect for the other person."
You, tj, do not respect anyone on this board and have broken the above rule repeatedly (I'm surprised you weren't deleted). I will soon be going off-line for a while as I am moving to the U.S. in the next few weeks. I'll probably get kicked off the board for this anyway. I would just like to leave you with this thought. There has been some question as to whether you are French. There has been some question as to whether you are as skilled as you claim to be.
Frankly, it doesn't matter. Even if you do have the heritage, intelligence and the skills, as you claim, at the end of the day all you've proved is that when dealing with others you're as unskilled as a child. Others might just call you a shithead. Why don't you start providing helpful information on these boards or leave these nice people alone before you drive them all away from the site.
As for the rest of you, thank you all for your various inputs. Hopefully I'll return soon as the dust from the move settles.
Gord
| By Yankee on Thursday, January 27, 2000 - 02:30 am: Edit |
Hey tj, when you get back to France with all of your American money, why don't you take a long walk out to Pointe du Hoc in Normandy and read the marker on the side of the bunker.
I enjoyed the time I spent in France, especially it's people and my old chef. My French friends here in the States are also great people. I love the pride and attitude they have because it makes them who they are. Trust me, they all think of you the same way I think of Americans who fly the Confederate flag.
Have a "cheese royale with frites" on me, babe.
Life is too short to be miserable. Ranting in forums is for children. Can we get back to pastry stuff now?
| By Doucefrance (Doucefrance) on Thursday, January 27, 2000 - 07:53 am: Edit |
How about being creative and start a new subject, like creating a new recipe once a month which would include two ingredients(each month different) given by , let's say George who is hosting this forum. That would be a challenge for all of us, a way of improving our skills and a wonderful way to share our knowledge with all the great and passionate people in this forum.
Helene
| By Claudia (Claudia) on Thursday, January 27, 2000 - 08:27 am: Edit |
Helene, That is a great idea. I come here to learn, not to be berated. As I said above, we should stop answering this clown. Let's get back to sharing ideas.
| By tj on Thursday, January 27, 2000 - 03:22 pm: Edit |
gord,
its true ,i have very poor people skills, i am very blunt, and very forthcoming when speeking face to face with people.i never hide or mask my opinion to please no body. thats the way i am, like it or not. deleting my massages will accomplish nothing.i can assume any name i want and use many other terminals here in school.
its funny how liberals wants to shut every body down if they dont like it, forgetting their precious first amendment.
| By tj on Thursday, January 27, 2000 - 03:30 pm: Edit |
by the way,
i suggest deleting this entire topic .
it doesnt fit the description "the great pastry debate" at all.there is nothing here that has to do with baking at all.just attaks back and forth.
this is what happens when people can not confront someone with a strong point.they attack him .
so who ever runs this forum, i request the deleation of this entire topic.it serves no purpose any more.just more insults.
| By tj on Thursday, January 27, 2000 - 03:37 pm: Edit |
i cant find a single line in any of my previous comments, that will show that i personaly attacked or insulted any one or showed any disrespect to any one personaly. all i kept asking for is if any one can disproof my very strong points.and what do you all do when you can not confrunt me with a professional response? you attack me personaly and make me look like some monster.
and you call yourselves professional?
| By Ramodeo (Ramodeo) on Thursday, January 27, 2000 - 03:37 pm: Edit |
tj,
There are ways to be blunt, forthcoming and not worried about pleasing people without being rude. Your messages are just plain rude. Grow up and behave like some one who wants to be a part of the human race.
gord,
Thank you for your post. It needed to be said. And don't worry, I don't think a few obnoxious posts will drive away any one!
| By tj on Thursday, January 27, 2000 - 03:42 pm: Edit |
how are my messages rude? you can not answer them so they are rude?
again, when did i showed any disrespect to any one personaly in this furom?
| By Ramodeo (Ramodeo) on Thursday, January 27, 2000 - 04:25 pm: Edit |
tj,
"keep your noses and your sarcastic advice where they belong"
"light years ahead of anything you think you know!"
"i guess you all know deep down in your hearts, when you are alone, who realy made this profession come to live."
"oh give it a rest already"
"i assure both of you ladies that i make 5 times as much as you in your jobs."
You need to be aware of how these are viewed by those reading them. I realize that the french may speak this way betweem them selves. If you had taken the time to read and absorb the tone of the posts in this forum in general you would see that people are more careful and respectful here than in face to face conversation. Here we don't have facial expressions and body language to mitigate the effect of poor word choice. Most here choose very carefully to preserve the polite and PROFESSIONAL nature of the discussions.
BTW, I am not saying that others, myself included have not been rude in this thread. It has really deteriotated and I'm not proud I got dragged into it again. I guess I have a weakness for standing up to immature behavior.
| By Admin (Admin) on Thursday, January 27, 2000 - 04:46 pm: Edit |
Moved and closed.
George
