TJ,
I would think you'd be bored of this conversation, after confronting so many people with it. Is it just that you like the controversy, or do you really believe this propaganda? I can site many instances when the pastry of other parts of the world influenced me, or taught me something. I grew up in a Syrian Jewish household, and learned a lot about Middle Eastern cuisine and pastry. It is quite different from European, and while it may not be as broad as French pastry, it stands up on its own. Maybe I'm still missing your point, because I know it has influenced me as a professional.

By tj on Saturday, January 22, 2000 - 09:56 pm: Edit

so go ahead ,give me an example.
how does it manifestate it self in your work?
i have alot of experience in middle eastern cooking.i love it , but the pastry side of it is very shallow ,most of the breads are flat breads like pita, fattir, or the leavened flat breads like the traditional hubbez ,but no crusty breads or any thing beyond the above i mentioned.as far as pastry, the only contribution the middle east ever gave to the professional bakers if filo dough.i cant say that anything else came to this profession from this perticular region of the world.
i am not saying in this discution that ethnic foods are not good in any way, all i am saying is that the majorety of the cultures in the world never evolved beyond 4th century baking. the only place on earth that that happened is in europe!
firts for the "rich and famous" royals , and very soon after for every body.

By tj on Saturday, January 22, 2000 - 10:03 pm: Edit

its all thanks to european imperializm (for good and bad) that this profession soon came to all corners of the earth, and ofcourse , every culture added its own touch in flavours or presentations, but the essence and basics of this profession are ,and ever shall be purely european ,like it or not!
the manipulation of ingredients in the classic european fassion , (and i am not talking about french only), is the main reason you and i have this job .without the whipping of eggs and sugar,
the preperations of creams and custards , putting it all together with passion and interest in creating never before seen products and artistic pieces , the world would still be eating pita bread and baklava for dessert.

By tj on Saturday, January 22, 2000 - 10:14 pm: Edit

you mentioned you are syrian ,great . i love damaskus. can you tell me of one good bakery there? how about cakes ,pastries or breads other then the ethnic ones that you see all over the middle east? can you tell me specificly how your syrian background hellped you as a baker ?
what did you learn that was of any professional value from the syrian baking tradition ?
as for the jewish side in you ,it is european.
east or west ,doesnt matter ,all modern jewish baking comes from europe.it is all takes on german/polish/slavian/hungarian/etc baking styles.

By tj on Saturday, January 22, 2000 - 10:24 pm: Edit

you keep talking about "parts of the world that influenced me "in this way or another ,and i am talking about an example of fundemental things that actualy cunributed to the baking profession.
this discussion is not about how you were influenced by this spice/flavor/presentation/ingrediants from what ever part of the world. this is about fundemental elements in baking and pastry technics that we all use every day ,and i say it is purely european with very little or no contribution or influence from anywhere else.

By momoreg on Sunday, January 23, 2000 - 09:37 am: Edit

I'm really not interested in defending my point of view at this point, because you have a narrow minded belief that if bread isn't crusty or leavened with yeast, it is not worthy of recgnition in modern baking. I can mention many cookies and candies that I made with my mother, that I have continued to make as a professional. And, by the way, as for me being Jewish, that is not from Europe, that is from the Middle East. Not all Jews descend from Europe.

By tj on Sunday, January 23, 2000 - 01:57 pm: Edit

looks like my point has won here.
no one can realy give me substatial examples ,not trivial ,about the contributions of any one other than european chefs to this profession.
it is funny to read all of those bleeding heart remarks protecting the lost "honore" of the rest of the world in the name of political corectnes and liberalizm.
i guess you all know deep down in your hearts ,when you are alone, who realy made this profession come to live.
thats about it for me in this forum.
need to move on ,
ciao.

By Panini (Panini) on Sunday, January 23, 2000 - 06:39 pm: Edit

This reminds me of my apprenticeship, it was under the european influence. The chefs I trained under all had the same attitude. Everything here in the US was crap! I heard it day after day. I still ,to this day have not understood why they were here. The only thing of value I could offer them was directions to the airport.
The PASSION my Grandmother had for cooking and baking contributes to my baking today. Formulas and recipes are only a tool, no matter where they came from.

By MLY on Sunday, January 23, 2000 - 07:08 pm: Edit

tj is absolutely correct. The European method of baking evolved in Europe. Of course other cultures have contributed ingredients. Even tj admits as much. Where would european baking be without sugarcane and chocolate? We must also acknowledge the egyptians for milled flour and the invention of baking ovens. Lets not forget the Arabs and their contribution of sorbet!

The fact that it was the Europeans who developed a different application for these ancient products cannot be disputed.

By MLY on Sunday, January 23, 2000 - 07:09 pm: Edit

Does the liberal use of butter and eggs make European baking superior? Of course not! It is just different. Even tj, being so well traveled, could not be foolish enough to make such a claim. If it were superior than wouldn't every culture have abandoned their own methods long ago?

Why, tj, do you cling so desperately to such an obvious fact? What security does it provide you to dare others to challenge something that cannot be disputed?

I suspect it is the fear of change that causes you to seek solice in such a trivial facts.

By MLY on Sunday, January 23, 2000 - 07:10 pm: Edit

The truth is Europe is no longer the culinary epicenter. As American chefs move to the forefront it is perfectly natural to to expect "hot french tempers" to flare out of the indignation of descending to second place.

How is it possible that Americans, inventors of Hamburger Helper and Kraft Maccaroni and Cheese, could create foods superior to Europeans with centuries of tradition and culture???

Americans are not bound by tradition. They are free to be as innovative and adventurous as they choose to be. Fusion cuisine is an excellent example of this. American chefs have sucessfully incorporated the melting pot into their cuisine and created something so exciting and new that it has captured international acclaim.

This style is also spilling into desserts and baking. The classic creme brulee, succes, and opera will always be acceptable, even though predictable. The day is soon to arrive when desserts based on mochi, sandesh and halo halo replace the european classics.

By MLY on Sunday, January 23, 2000 - 07:11 pm: Edit

tj claims that no other cultures have profoundly influenced european baking. This may have been true up until a few years ago. Today, however, it IS being altered.

I can understand how threated eurocentric chefs, such as tj, must feel! Their livelihood is completely threatened! When classical European baking and pastry is no longer valued as highly, what shall they do? They have spent so long perfecting old techniques that they cannot adapt or compete with the younger, more innovative chefs.

So what do they do? They vehemently defend tradition and make silly, redundant arguements. Use of creme brulee in a wedding cake is blasphemy! If Le Notre didn't do it then it should not be done!

By MLY on Sunday, January 23, 2000 - 07:12 pm: Edit

I say let the old timers cling to tradition and history. Careme and Escoffier had their day and we have paid them hommage. Today is the future, however. It is and exciting time of change and innovation.

tj, it is time for you to retire. Despite your travels, you have spent 30 years too many in basement kitchens and not enough time actually experiencing other cultures to realize their value. It is time to step aside and let the youth lead us into the future!

By Ramodeo (Ramodeo) on Sunday, January 23, 2000 - 07:30 pm: Edit

MLY - THANK YOU!!! I agree completely. You put that so eloquently. I wish I could have expressed those same thoughts so clearly.

By Ramodeo (Ramodeo) on Sunday, January 23, 2000 - 07:40 pm: Edit

tj, in case you come back to visit....
Did you only come to this forum to provoke controversy on this one subject? What a waste of time. If you ever want to come back, many here would certainly enjoy you sharing the fruits of your long experience, as so many others have done so graciously. If all you want to do is stir things up, refuse to really debate and leave, then fine, Bye Bye!

By Claudia (Claudia) on Sunday, January 23, 2000 - 08:05 pm: Edit

Hallelujah, tj is gone. This was starting to remind me of a 6 year old bully who just keeps getting louder and louder, saying the same thing. What we parents do in that case is ignore him and walk out of the room. It was an interesting "debate" and I am glad I am american, free to innovate and experiment, while understanding the tradition of centuries of cooking - from all around the world.

By momoreg on Sunday, January 23, 2000 - 11:10 pm: Edit

We got nowhere in a hurry with that one...

By Panini (Panini) on Monday, January 24, 2000 - 08:21 am: Edit

MLY,Ramodeo,W Debord and the rest,
You all are very articulate. I am not that fortunate, my hands need to be waving around for me to get a point across.I hang around here and throw in my 2 cents mainly for relaxation and insight.
Its sad about tj, what a waste of knowledge.

By W.DeBord on Monday, January 24, 2000 - 02:53 pm: Edit

I'm sure you still glance here to see what we write about you tj (at least I hope so). I welcome your thoughts and imput from a person who has worked in this business far longer than I (and many of us). We need not agree, this is a place to express any baking thoughts. We are not a united group gathered against you, even though together none of us agreed with you on this point.

I personally hope you'll take the time to show us your knowledge by participating in this form. Agree or disagree neither matter, if you love baking pass on your knowledge and gain knowledge.

Sincerely,
W.DeBord

By momoreg on Monday, January 24, 2000 - 03:17 pm: Edit

Very diplomatic! I'm impressed.

By Doucefrance (Doucefrance) on Monday, January 24, 2000 - 08:31 pm: Edit

MLY, you spelled it out, french pastry chefs can't admit being beat on their ground by american teams, and I enjoy it, even if I am french, it was about time that someone came up to tell France that you can only stay the best if you follow evolution and work to progress not sleep on your success and think it is enough.
Helene

By tj on Monday, January 24, 2000 - 11:06 pm: Edit

who said i am gone?
dont think you`ll get me out of this forum sp quickly.i ment i am out of this discution.you all understand my point.
MLY, i will prais the day americans will contribute knowledge to french chefs...
until then , all you can show for is some prizes in competitions. the future in this trade is beeing made still in france , by people like pascal caffet ,olivier bajard, yves thuries , etc.
light years ahead of anything you think you know!

By tj on Monday, January 24, 2000 - 11:16 pm: Edit

how can you talk about the future of baking beeing made here in the usa , when you can count the fine bake shops in the country on your 10 fingers, and have some fingers left? how can you say this ,when the american public knows less than 0 about fine baking , and the highlight of the day is a cheese cake or a "gourmet" muffin? have you any idea how many fine bakeries there are in france? you know why? its because the simple every day people who know the chefs ,who know the products, who go 3 or 4 times a week to the local patisserie and actualy buy the stuff ,not just look at it!
until your avarage citizen knows who the pastry chefs are in this country ,until they will have the understanding of the products, until you will have a good bake shop in every neighbourhood ,until then , i sure hope the future of baking is not in this country , couse down the drain it will go .along with the "public support" it has here.

By tj on Monday, January 24, 2000 - 11:29 pm: Edit

you keep on opening your revolting chains of bagel and donut shops ,thats what americans eat.thats what they know.plus they actualy think that what they sell to them is bagels! hhhhaaaaahhhhaaaaaaaahhhhhhhaaaaaaahhhhhaaaaa
incredible.you people have no idea how idiotic this looks to foreigners.how every muffin becomes "gourmet" ,how chocolate chip cookies are hailed as a devine creation.
plus the only place your "super star" american pastry chefs are working is in big time hotels and country clubs. you know why ?
couse they know they are sure to fail in a private shop , couse the stupid customers will put them out of business.
how can this profession have a future in a country that lives in the past?
this is all messured on the level of the simplest person in the street.what does he know about it.what does he wants to eat .not you!!!!!and i think we all know what they want to eat.check out the number of hamburger joints.

By tj on Monday, January 24, 2000 - 11:33 pm: Edit

oh yeh....good thing this is a "baking" forum...
i could go on for weeks on the quality of cheese and cold cuts here ..... what a shame.....not to mention the fruits and vegetables.......better to eat the plastic bags.....more taste.....

By tj on Monday, January 24, 2000 - 11:40 pm: Edit

i wonder what else you have to say about french,
french this and french that.....is it envy?
is it american pride ? patriotizm? ignorance? or just hate ? maybe its the way americans are treated when the go to europe ,being laughed at when they order food ,or on the constant look for the neerest mcdonalds....
i will check back just to see what other coments every body have about "the french"...

By momoreg on Tuesday, January 25, 2000 - 06:49 am: Edit

This isn't a French-hating forum.. This can easily become really ugly, but you're obviously trying to make it that way. We dont need to stoop to that level.

By Doucefrance (Doucefrance) on Tuesday, January 25, 2000 - 08:54 am: Edit

tj
Just a reminder, without the americans we would all speak fluent german in France!...
I hope you read my message in french in the "creme brulee" discussion, but now I wonder if you are really french. WHO are you? Where do you come from? Where were you trained? Where is YOUR pastry shop so we can go see what YOU DO?
Helene

By Ramodeo (Ramodeo) on Tuesday, January 25, 2000 - 10:38 am: Edit

tj,
When you are ready to contribute to a discussion calmly and rationally, I will very much enjoy seeing what you have to say. Let's agree to disagree on "the great pastry debate" and move on to something more productive. How about if you go back through some of the older threads and see if you have some suggestions for people who have brought questions to this forum. THAT would be helpful.

If all you wish to do is rant and rave and insist that you are right, go ahead, but I won't waste any more of my time responding to you, and I hope others will do the same.

By W.DeBord on Tuesday, January 25, 2000 - 11:53 am: Edit

tj this is rantingly boring! You do have many points but what do any of them mean to us? Americans as a society really don't care what the french do. We make money in this country, we invent, we lead etc... Americans largest sources of pride have nothing to do with food! We eat our own items our own way and take or borrow what we want from other cultures with-out asking for guidance. Americans do not follow the standards of other countries we don't care what they are, we have our own thoughts.

Jealousy is the funniest thing you could say. I can't think of one American who feels the littlest tingle of jealousy over Frances' contributiuons to society. Cooking....HA! it doesn't enter Americans' minds as something important. It is an important source of energy, to let us achieve more important matters.

I hope you have more to your depth than this "we're better than you" school yard behavior. Tell me where in the States you've worked that you know sooooo much about Americans?

By tj on Tuesday, January 25, 2000 - 02:50 pm: Edit

w.debord
looks to me that you are the only one in this forums who understands what i am talking about.
people take it very personaly when i critisize them , and my points are all about food couse this is a food forum. i would never dream of thinking of debating any of you about your space program, money market, industry, social advances, even health care (which seems to be braking down in france), but ,when it comes to food the road is very long. you have just started geting in to this area of the coulinary world , and every thing that i have seen so far was and still is copied from europe ,with small adjustments in flavors .

By tj on Tuesday, January 25, 2000 - 03:02 pm: Edit

as for me,
my production days are over.
i teach now in a pastry program ,and will do so for another 3 years befor i retire .i had a shop here in the states , but i sold it after 3 years when i realized i am fighting wind mills with my style of production and this gets me no where.
so now i make alot of money teaching.
i am from Limoges, compleated my c.a.p. in 1965 ,and worked all over the world.if you want to see me alnog with my work or my former shop i will be happy to email it to you.

By tj on Tuesday, January 25, 2000 - 03:13 pm: Edit

as for my students,
i made some observations on the general atitude ,and came to some conclussions.
it seems that the main differance between a french student and an american student is, that the french is willing to sacrifice more and give alot more time to practice to be the best chef they can over at least 5 years befor they think of adopting the title "chef", when here , the students are impetiant, whant to see and learn every thing in 6 months ,and be famous.this is disturbing to see, couse i know that without the years of manual practice, and the right atitude, they will get now where, frastrated , moving from one job to another in search of stardom, and eventualy ,sadly ,may give it up, and do something different.watching the "food channel" makes them blind to the real world of long hourse and hard work and little or no recognition.the system here does a poor job prepering them for this, and all schools are after ,seems to be the tuitions.

By momoreg on Tuesday, January 25, 2000 - 03:38 pm: Edit

That must be so frustrating...So why are you here?

By Morgane on Tuesday, January 25, 2000 - 03:49 pm: Edit

TJ,

Vous semblez avoir de nombreuses choses a dire sur les americains et les Etats-Unis. A vous entendre, il n'y a pas de pire endroit sur terre ou l'on pourrait vivre. Pourquoi donc y rester? Retournez donc en France si la vie y est si douce au lieu de passer votre temps a chialer sur tout et a radoter toujours les memes platitudes.


Morgane